Tuesday, August 23, 2005

Pat Robertson Calls for US to Assassinate Chavez

[A Note: Readers, I did not make this one up.]

Pat Robertson, the conservative US televangelist and ally of President Bush, announced yesterday on his Christian Broadcast Network program that the US government ought to assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. According to this report from AP, what Robertson said exactly was:

We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

The Reverend Robertson, having reviewed the Ten Commandments carefully, apparently concluded that number five ceases to have jurisdiction at the southern US border. The Bush administration later distanced itself from Robertson's comments. Other than that, I believe that the story speaks for itself.

36 Comments:

Anonymous japaza said...

For newbies to this blog, go here first:

http://www.publiushpundits.com/?p=1308

and/or here

http://bolicarreras.blogspot.com/2005/07/
ngos-shenanigans-what-is-behind-bolivia_06.html

Ok, so, now Bush is an a****** and Evo/Fidel/Chavez are heroes because one (1) of Bush's supporters said publicly something stupid.

If we cave into this reasoning, then, Schultz, you are guilty for everytime one of your supporting readers smokes pot, jaywalks or says something idiotic. Things are really simple with you, right?

That is called freedom of speech. People is allowed to say all sorts of stupidities without any fear. Just look at this blog. That does not mean that the President will run to do as he says. It is just that, an OPINION. You lefties will have to respect it.

I personally do not agree with the reverend, but understand his reasoning. After all, wouldn't it had been cheaper to just kill Saddam than to go to war? Ethics appart, the answer is yes.

(To all of you, Schultz-loving, right-wing and logic-hating public: Again, I do not agree with the reverend. The "ethics appart" statement was just to make a point, i.e. I can understand his reasoning.
If you start bashing my comment because of that, you'll just prove you don't get what you read. I have given you plenty of other stuff to bash my thoughts, so don't spend time on that one.)

1:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is this thing you have against jaywalkers?

Hey, I hear that Evo Morales is secretly North Korean. Did you hear that too japaza?

I love you dude! You crack me up every day. Way funnier than the Blog. Puuhleeze don't stop.

2:14 PM  
Anonymous cap'n said...

Thanks, japaza, for speaking truth to uninformed, liberal power.

You're right, only one (1) of Bush's supporters has said something stupid about Chavez/Morales/Castro (I hear they are seeking out options for mutually inseminating Jane Fonda so that she can bear the antichrist).

I guess that everything that Rumsfeld, Rice, Burns, Noriega, et al doesn't represent the official Administration line, either.

Thanks, again. You really set us Schultzheads straight.

3:30 PM  
Anonymous japaza said...

hey cap'n
wrong again. How does it feel to be always wrong? What Rumsfeld says is obviously official, duh!, but that does not mean it is stupid.

What Rumsfeld said in Paraguay is nothing but the truth. Chavez is interfering on Bolivia. He is financing all leftist activities (if you want the proof go to Chavez' accounts, don't bug me). And that does not help neither the region nor the country. So, how is that stupid? Or you just heard Eduardo Galeano say so? Apples and oranges, dude.

Maybe in a couple of years, when you grow up, you will understand what I am saying. Maybe then, you will even realize the bunch of crap that Galeano and co. are feeding you.

Hey anonymous, thanx. I also love myself. Next time, though, you should try to present a real argument instead. Or maybe thinking hurts?

Btw, I don't have anything against jaywalkers or smoking pot. Hearing stupidities annoys me, but what can you do?

3:55 PM  
Anonymous Ryan said...

Japaza. Stop teasing us, you silly boy. If you have the evidence of Chavez's influence, please share it with us brainwashed young lefties. How did you get into his "accounts?"

Oh, here it is: one line item says "Global Communist Conspiracy" and lists expenses in Bolivianos. That must be the one.

4:04 PM  
Anonymous japaza said...

Ryan,
let's do this the other way round. You say there is no Chavista intervention in Bolivia, right? Well, prove it.

Prove to me, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Chavez is not sticking his hands in Bolivia.

4:14 PM  
Anonymous bolivianos el hado propicio said...

hi,
First of all, I just want to point out that only half the news have been reported. Misteriously, the censored statement reads:

"The U.S. government distanced itself from Robertson's comments.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, appearing at a Pentagon news conference, said when asked: ''Our department doesn't do that kind of thing. It's against the law. He's a private citizen. Private citizens say all kinds of things all the time.''

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called Robertson's remarks ''inappropriate.''

''This is not the policy of the United States government. We do not share his views,'' McCormack said."

way to go Jim. Reporting half the news always does the trick.

I am also waiting for the response of the previous discussion. I also want to hear conclusive proof that Chavez is not in Bolivia.

4:27 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

yes, the fallout from Pat Robertson's murderous rhetoric on Venezuela has begun: http://danmoriarty.blogspot.com/2005/08/our-department-fallout-from-pat.html

6:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Please don't discourage the two clowns (bolinica and japaza) from continuing their hilarious postings. They are very entertaining, they are also living proof that the true evil we face is ignorance.

7:43 PM  
Anonymous Other Anonymous said...

It is true. I would have to watch Fox for hours to get what I get from these guys with a few Web clicks a day. Hey guys, keep those postings coming.

Hey, do you think Evo, Fidel and Hugo are all gay?

7:49 PM  
Anonymous Democarp said...

japaza said "Hearing stupidities annoys me, but what can you do?"

Would that spouting stupidities annoyed you half as much.

7:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ok, as soon as we all graduate from elementary school and can exchange views without name-calling...

Sorry, but it doesn't take a read through any of Galeano's books to understand and recognize the social, economic and political injustice - heavily influenced by the "first-world" - that ravages Latin America.

From the NYT: "There certainly is evidence that both Cuba and Venezuela have been involved in the situation in Bolivia in unhelpful ways," Mr. Rumsfeld told reporters traveling with him this week." The "situation" in Bolivia that he finds so unhelpful - unhelpful because it wouldn't help US interests, not because it would be unhelpful to the country - wasn't born from Chavez and Fidel. As if Morales or MAS or any leftist populist views wouldn't have a chance, or even exist, if Chavez wasn't funding it. Hmmm.
I happen to remember that Morales came awfully close to winning elections in 2002 as well - this just couldn't be due to real SUPPORT from the Bolivian people. Come on, the left in Bolivia certianly isn't a Chavez-Fidel invention.

ALTHOUGH, I wouldn't doubt Chavez is funneling the money to MAS. And so what?
I do believe the US has given lots of money (and installed entire "democracies") wherever they want, including Venezuela.

Rumsfeld and Rice's recent visits to Latin America don't surprise me either. We have to put a stop to gang violence, corruption, and drug trafficing, no? I mean, why acknowledge that the REAL problem is demand, yes, we've all taken ECON 101? Where there is demand, there will be a supply. Could it be that the US has such a huge demand for...drugs?

Go-o-o-o free market.

Gang violence? I am sure, for example, we had nothing to do with any aid in conflict in El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua... that has heavily contributed to gang problems both within those countries and in the US. Poor southern California.

Now let's stop blaming everyone else, stop the lies, and looking everywhere else for the source of the US's problems. And it's time for the Bush administration to stop pretending that the lean to the left is all conspiracy. There could actually be REAL support. Scares them, eh?

9:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last anonymous is right. Most of the people here is just yelling at bolinica and japza, which is just childish.
If you have an argument or a point to make, do it. If you only want to insult people for thinking different than you, don't waste everybody's time.
Ok, now I have spotted that the childish anonymouses are doing a very dangerous generalization. For them, somebody who does not like Fidel or Chavez MUST also hate gays, be a radical christian white, despise minorities and go burn big wooden crosses in the front yards of african americans. Right?
Well, for the other guys, clearly, somebody who does not despise Fidel and Chavez MUST also have mental problems.
So, what I propose is to get to know a little the people we have already labeled. In this way, if we understand better the person, we may be able ti understand their positions better. All I am asking, is for everybody to stop being childish and the next time you post here, please answer the following questions:
1. Where in the world do you live
2. Where in the political spectrum do you position yourself
3. Have you ever lived in a Communist regime?
4. What do you think of comunism?
5. What do you think of market-driven capitlism
6. What do you think about Fidel?
7. Would you like to live in Cuba (Note: is different to vacation in Cuba than to live there. Arguments such as "yes, because when I went for 5 days it was awesome!" are not accepted)
8. What do you think of Chavez?
9. Would you like to live in Venezuela (the same note as in 4 applies)
10. What do you think of Bush?
11. Would you like to live in America/do you like living in America?
12. Have you ever been in Bolivia?
13. Favourite books (useful for the Galeano claim)
14. Other things you enjoy (movies, music, etc)

Please try to be as direct as possible and do not elaborate too much on each question, so things do not become boring

6:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, i will be the first to answer
1. La PAz, Bolivia
2. Center-right
3. No
4. I think it does not and will not ever work, and that is proven by history. The reason is that, paraphrasing Frank Zappa, people like to own things.
5. Not perfect, but the best thing we have, when functioning properly
6. To be honest, I don't give a shit about Fidel
7. No.
8. Chavez is just a clown and the sooner he falls the better. He is dangerous, has too many resources (oil).
9. No
10. Although he is bit dumb, I think he is not doing things too bad. He is a strong leader, which was needed, after 9/11. he messed big time in Irak, though.
11. I lived in the US for 2 years, and generally liked it.
12. Live there
13. Rainbow's Gravity, by Pynchon, Rise and fall of the third Reich, by Shirer and Ficciones by Borges.
14. The usual: music, movies, beer.

6:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I forgot:
15. How old are you

6:48 AM  
Anonymous Andre Breton said...

Elephants are contagious!

10:33 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Speaking of name-calling and painting everyone of a different opinion as broad-stroke caricatures, looks like our boy Rumsfeld is doing the same, comparing anyone who dare utter the word "quagmire" regarding Iraq to the Commies of the 1940s:

http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/2005/tr20050823-secdef3741.html

"I'm reminded that a few weeks after Operation Enduring Freedom began in Afghanistan, a news story suggested that the U.S. was already in a quagmire.  But it was several weeks later, only, that Kabul actually fell to the Northern Alliance and our forces.  Throughout history there have always been those who predict America's failure just around every corner.  At the height of World War II, a prominent U.S. diplomat predicted that democracy was finished in Britain and probably in America too.  Many Western intellectuals praised Stalin during that period.  For a time, Communism was very much in vogue.  It was called Euro-Communism to try to mute or mask the totalitarian core.  And thankfully, the American people are better centered.  They ultimately come to the right decisions on big issues.  And the future of Iraq is a very big issue.  So those being tossed about by the winds of concern should recall that Americans are a tough lot and will see their commitments through. "  
 
So, I suppose it shouldn't surprise anyone to see similar rhetoric thrown around here. Sadly, it's the state of much public discourse today. Of course, it's far more frightening coming from the head of the world's largest armed forces than it is on a blog comment thread.

12:51 PM  
Blogger Andrew T. said...

Gosh, skimming this comment section sort of reminds me why I've stopped commenting here. Sometimes it just seems sort of futile.

As for Robertson on Chavez? Who cares. I figured this would come up here, but I can't see how it's particularly relevant to anything, except fanning the flames of our particular politics.

But, for those of you who've read my comments in the past, I'll tell you about myself as per the above request:

1. Where in the world do you live

Midwest of USA.

2. Where in the political spectrum do you position yourself

Centerish. Have very conservative views on some things, very liberal on others. ie I believe strongly in "traditional family values", but believe those values extend to homosexual couples, but not to irresponsible parents who work 12 hours a day in order to make enough money to drive Hummers.

3. Have you ever lived in a Communist regime?

Nope.

4. What do you think of comunism?

A clearly failed system that confuses the notion of equality. At its best, capitalism posits equality of opportunity as the maximum good, with outcome determined by skill and work. At its best, communism posits equality of condition as the maximum good. Both systems are flawed in their real world implementation, but communism is more unjust even in its "perfect state".

Communism (or any planned economy) is also fundamentally unworkable because of the complexity of human economies and the incredible overhead (and inefficiency) needed to centrally plan economics.

That said, there may be a role for central planning in the early stages of a countries transition. I'm open to it in Bolivia, if it can be put into terms that are not just a sort of anti-gringo jingoism.

5. What do you think of market-driven capitlism

It's essentially freedom, and thus the best system. It's also the fairest and clearly the most able to create material prosperity, which is a benefit to humanity.

As in ALL situations of human freedom, many people abuse that freedom to do harm. As in ALL situations of human freedom, there are bad actors. For these reasons, as in ALL situations of human freedom, we must establish ground rules that protect the weak, punish the abusive, and do so in a way that doesn't compromise the freedom that makes the system good in the first place.

6. What do you think about Fidel?

Fascinating character, full of ambiguities, and very smart. Unfortunately he's also proven to be brutal and repressive. I wonder if he still truly believes his own rhetoric or if he knows what he has become. It's hard to hate a man that charismatic and intelligent, but I think any sort of positive vibes toward him are the worst sort of cult of personality - giving a guy acclaim because he's magnetic while forgetting what he's actually done.

7. Would you like to live in Cuba

Nope. Although my guess is that just like the "streets paved with gold" characterization of the US is exaggerated, the "it's a police state of unremitting brutality" is probably overstated too. That's just a guess.

8. What do you think of Chavez?

Don't know much about him, but he strikes me as a quite ignorant populist who will not help Venezuela nor the region.

9. Would you like to live in Venezuela (the same note as in 4 applies)

Don't know enough to respond, but I would not like having Chavez as my president.

10. What do you think of Bush?

A generally ignorant but well intentioned man who's biggest fault is a simplistic belief in his own views on the world and the ultimate correctness of his views.

I don't think he's fundamentally evil, just too closed minded to realize that maybe his view of the world is not correct in all cases at all times. (Fidel is too smart to get off the hook in this catagory).

This doesn't make Bush's mistakes any less brutal or dangerous. Bush's combination of ignorance, closed-mindedness, and power make him the most dangerous man on earth - but it doesn't make him evil.

I didn't vote for him and I never would. I've never voted Republican and don't plan to (though I'd give McCain a good look).

Bush should be given credit for having core beliefs and the willingness to risk his own skin for something he believes in. He hasn't made the "easy choice" in a lot of cases. If only Clinton - whose politics I agree with - had half the balls.

In sum, Bush is a nice enough guy to have a beer with down at the corner bar, but never should have been allowed to be president of the Lions club, let alone of the US.

11. Would you like to live in America/do you like living in America?

It's got it's ups and downs, but overall, a great place to live.

12. Have you ever been in Bolivia?

Lived there for 10 years.

13. Favourite books (useful for the Galeano claim)

Not Galeano. Probably (if I was forced to pick one) Lord of the Rings.

14. Other things you enjoy (movies, music, etc)

American football (go packers) and soccer.

Not sure how often I can stomache wading into these conversations, though the thoughtful comments of some do keep me coming back.

And Jim is:
a. Probably not the radical leftist guerrilla he's made out to be by some.
b. A lot more wacked out and unrealistically scarily leftist than he thinks he is.
c. Thankfully writing this blog to give all of us a chance to spout off.

4:08 PM  
Anonymous Ryan said...

Japazza asks if I can provide evidence that Chavez is NOT interfering in Bolivia. Sure, just after I prove that unicorns don't exist. What evidence, Japazza, would possibly suffice to prove a negative statement?

I'm just asking you what you base your charge on, other than White House assertions.

5:31 PM  
Anonymous japaza said...

Ryan,
boy, you a simple being. I am not basing my thoughts on what Rumsfeld said, but on these facts.
Here it goes:
1. Evo has recently visited Venezuela. You obviously have not read that in here, have you? Well, why did he do it in the eve of the presidential election? Probably to get 1. guidance 2. Funds
2. Chavez is clearly interested in Bolivia failing as an energy powerhouse for the region. The proof for this is in the "energetic ring". Just after Bolivia's quasi-civil war, he told the other countries not to worry about Bolivia's resources, because he could provide enough energy for the region for the next couple of hundred years. Then, you have his statement from last week: One thing is ideology, other thing is commercial interest. In this case, the commercial interest has the upper hand. So, yes, he is interested in Bolivia's instability so that he can provide energy to the region. Remember, he would not be just providing oil, but gaining influence.
What influence? Remember the OEA/OAS vote on whether democracy in the region should be monitored. All the countries that receive cheap oil from Venezuela (i.e. Argentina, Brazil, etc) voted against.
So, 1. He financed at least part of the revolts earlier this year, becuase of what i have just explained to you.
2. he will finance Evo, so that in case he wins, which is a real possibility, he can control Bolivia's resources through this puppet.
So, there you have some solid, non conspiracy theory about Chavez. Now go on, please prove me wrong, prove me tha Chanvez is not doing anything. I don't want excuses. I just want you to use your brain a little. Say something other than "this is ludicrous!", "right-wing assh***, why are you so scared of the people? Why do you hate gays and minorities?" or "what now, do you want me to prove there is no loch ness monster?" and get real. Poor sob.

5:47 AM  
Anonymous Ryan said...

Japazza,
I think that Chavez may or may not be contributing money to Evo. It's possible, I agree. But by journalistic standards, you have not offered any evidence, but rather reasons why it would make sense for him to do so.

There is circumstansial evidence that he is not funding MAS, and here is some of it: Currently, around 150 MAS leaders are facing narcoterrorism charges. None have been convicted but several sit in prison and the rest must make regular costly trips to La Paz for court appearances. A decent lawyer never would have allowed the cases to be moved to La Paz from the Chapare. But they don't have a decent lawyer -- they have one lawyer who handles all the cases on a pro bono basis, and one who clearly is not doing a good job. If they had Chavez money, wouldn't they hire a decent lawyer? Wouldn't that be the first priority?

9:35 AM  
Anonymous japaza said...

I think not. WOuldn't you rather agree that getting the presidency is a better move, given the Chavista interests i have just highlighted? why focus in such a small thing? The electoral race has already begun and I have not read a word on a political leader using these narcoterrorist links as an argument.

Additionally, it's Bolivia we're talking about. If Evo gets elected, the 150 guys won't go to jail, but probably buy big houses in La Paz or Cochabamba and send their kids to private schools.

So, to answer your question, no, I don't it would be the priority.

And finally, as for having no journalistic evidence, well, duh! I don't have a cheque signed by Chavez and payable to Evo Morales. Living in Sucre, it is extremely difficult for me to get into the MAS headquarters and get the evidence for this afternoon.

However, all we need is a little logic; answer these questions: who benefits with Bolivia being unstable? who has the resources to mobilize so many people? Didn't evo start talking about a new constitution AFTER visiting Venezuela? The rest is just Occam's razor.

5:10 AM  
Anonymous japaza said...

To add a last comment on why the 150 guys are not a priority.
Remember the saying "May God deliver from British food, German women and Bolivian justice"?
Well, Alvaro Garcia Linera, the vice-presidential candidate for MAS is currently going through a terrorism process. He was a member of a guerrilla and the terrorist group that kidnapped UN's candidate, Doria Medina.
How can he possibly be the vice-presidential candidate and tries for terrorism at the same time? Answer: It's Bolivia. Anything can happen.

The same will probably apply in the case of the 150. Being processed for narcoterrorism will probably not prevent them from being candidates to the lower house or even the senate. SO, it's not a priority, not even for MAS.

5:18 AM  
Blogger Boli-Nica said...

Wow, some scary thinking here.

Talk about humorless.

No one else here got how funny it was for Pat Robertson in particular to get into it with Hugo.

Those two flat-earthers are the mirror image of each-other. One thinks that literal creationism should be taught as science, the other that Socialism somehow works.






Well, Alvaro Garcia Linera, the vice-presidential candidate for MAS is currently going through a terrorism process. He was a member of a guerrilla and the terrorist group that kidnapped UN's candidate, Doria Medina.
How can he possibly be the vice-presidential candidate and tries for terrorism at the same time? Answer: It's Bolivia. Anything can happen.


Garcia Linera is lucky to be alive. People forget that when these clowns were starting the 'armed struggle" the biggest fear in Bolivia was the start of some "Sendero Luminoso" type movement, and these guys seemed to fit the bill. One of the biggest lessons from the Sendero campaign was selectively targeting the top leadership cadres of the organization in order to bring it crashing down. The Bolivians thought that they could nip this one at the bud, by locking up the top guys. The other option, that was discussed at the time, was the one the Rev. Robertson seems to want for Colonel Hugo.

12:20 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I don't know if anyone is still referring back to this thread, but ust for the record, since some commenters insist on throwing around baseless accusations and libelous labels: Garcia Linera was not a part of the group that kidnapped Doria Medina - that has never even been alleged.

I think there may be some honest confusion between two Tupacs, as the group Garcia Linera was accused (never convicted) of helping lead was the Bolivian EGTK (Ejercito Guerrillero de Tupac Katari), whereas Doria Medina was actually kidnapped by a different group in conjunction with several Peruvian members of a totally separate, Peruvian organization called MRTA (Movimiento Revolucionario de Tupac Amaru).

I also think it is too easy and not at all accurate to talk about Sendero Luminoso. If anything, the EGTK was more akin to the MRTA in its tactics than it was to Shining Path, as Shining Path targeted civilians, aid workers, missionaries, and any non-Shining Path projects or organizations in a quasi-Maoist effort to level Peru culturally and politically, in order to build up some kind of supposed utopia in its place. I don't doubt that people feared this would happen in Bolivia, but the EGTK hardly "fit the bill." Even as I take issue with any armed revolution, I believe there are important differences between them.

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