Saturday, January 20, 2007

Who Will Cross the Line?

For months those with a more hyperbolic analysis of events here have warned of “civil war”. It was supposed to start, they warned, in Santa Cruz, where opposition to President Evo Morales is most fierce. But that was never the unfolding of events that was in the cards. It is the very ferocity of Santa Cruz opposition to Morales, the lopsidedness of it, that made mass civil conflict there unlikely.

The ugly preview of what civil conflict can look like happened, instead, here in Cochabamba. Why? Because this is the meeting point between the western highlands where Evo’s support runs highest, and the eastern lowlands where he is so despised. It happened where both sides could muster large numbers and it happened here because the local Governor, Manfred Reyes Villa, made a dangerous play to position himself as the key national opponent of the President.

So now the lines are drawn. As I have written before, this is not the Water Revolt of seven years ago. This is not a unified city – south and north, poor and middle class, rural and urban – against a repressive government. This is a city deeply divided.

Who will cross the line?

I have made it a point since these conflicts began to spend a lot of time crossing the line, talking to partisans on both sides and the many more who feel caught in the middle. Each side is utterly convinced that there is no legitimacy to the other. If you want a taste of the vitriol and closed-mindedness at hand, you can get a taste from the more bitter comments on this Blog.

Here is what I wish. I wish that some neutral party (if there is one left) would convene a public forum, televised for the whole city to watch, in which three people from each side would share their views of what has happened here and why. Neither side is capable now of listening to the other. Each side has sought some peaceful action toward reflection this past week. One held a street corner memorial for a 17 year old killed brutally. The other held a cultural event opposing racism in the Central Plaza. But they did this apart.

“Is there room for reconciliation?” I asked a young woman yesterday who was in Plaza de la Banderas when the Manfredistas began the assault on the campesinos on the 11th, and who had the blood of a beaten elderly man splatter across her. “Not now, not after hearing the racist attacks as they hit us.”

Here is what I would say to each side:

To The Campesinos and Others Who Gathered in Cochabamba
to Demand Manfred’s Resignation:


Yes, I fully realize that you see Manfred’s demand for a re-vote on autonomy and his alliance with those in Santa Cruz as a broader political move to stop political transformation in its tracks. Certainly, it is that, among other things. I realize that you think that those who back Manfred are “fascists” (whatever that overused term means these days). Certainly the stick and gun wielding young men who broke through the police lines on the 11th to beat women first, while screaming the most racist things they knew, certainly they gave you ample reason to believe this.

But there are a lot of people in Cochabamba who aren’t them and who don’t see it that way. They believe in democracy and they don’t see how a gathering of 5,000 or even 10,000 people have a right to undo an election in which ten times that many participated and chose a governor. They do not believe that burning the state office building is a solution. After weeks of asking I still have yet to get a satisfactory response to the question: “What gives you the right, more than anyone else, to undo an election?” There are many complaints to be raised against Manfred, but this is not Goni in 2003. Then a President ordered out troops to kill civilians, in repression so blatant and brutal that his own Vice President broke with him [While Manfred, by the way, stood by Goni’s side].

My friends, there is another side to the story.

To Those Who Took Peacefully to the Streets to Oppose the Demand for Resignation

Yes, I realize you see the arrival of the campesinos and others as an anti-democratic act by outsiders. I understand that you believe you are defending democracy. But recognize that for years, the better off of Bolivia have been telling the poor and the marginalized to leave behind the politics of the street and enter the arena of elections. Seek political transformation there, you told them. And many of you allied yourselves with that transformation by voting, with hesitation, for Evo a year ago.

But what faith in the integrity of elections are the marginalized supposed to have when a governor elected with a 47% majority, in a blatant move to serve his own national ambitions, seeks to undo a clear vote (63%) against autonomy just six months ago. Are elections a carnival game where if you miss the balloon with your dart the first time you just put down another quarter and demand to play again? Did you really expect those who see so much at stake for them in this transformation to just issue a news release or call into a radio show to articulate their anger?

Yes, someone burned the doors of the Prefectura (though who did and under what circumstances is still not clear). But make no mistake, on the 11th it was not the campesinos who broke through the police lines set up to keep the peace. It was a mob of Manfred backers armed with unhindered racism, sticks, guns and a strategy of “beat indigenous women first”. You should be concerned, deeply concerned, about who organized and ordered that attack. They are not people you want as allies.

The lines are drawn and each side is utterly dedicated to their convictions that they are 100% in the right and those who think differently are misguided at best, and patently evil at worst.

There is something tragically poetic that each side lost a life on January 11th. That can either be a wake up call to find another way to resolve the dispute at hand, or January 11th will serve just as an ugly preview of where Bolivians are headed. Your choice my adopted countrymen and countrywomen.

61 Comments:

Blogger Frank IBC said...

Yes, someone burned the doors of the Prefectura (though who did and under what circumstances is still not clear).

Keep spinning, Jim.

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Yes, someone burned the doors of the Prefectura (though who did and under what circumstances is still not clear)"

Yes, and maybe that "mob of Manfred backers armed with unhindered racism" was really disguised Cubians sent by Castro.

I dont think you are the neutral party spoken about in your article.

-Marcello

3:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frankie Boy,

And you keep on thinking people care what you have to say, I am sure your ego needs it.

3:39 PM  
Blogger Frank IBC said...

Somehow Jim omitted this paragraph... I'm sure it just got eaten by Blogger...

It was a mob of Evo backers armed with unhindered racism, sticks, slingshots, machetes and a strategy of “beat, hack, and strangle to death light-skin youths who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time”. You should be concerned, deeply concerned, about who organized and ordered that attack. They are not people you want as allies.

3:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is my first posting & I’d like to start by thanking Jim Shultz for making available this platform for us to exchange out thoughts & ideas on what’s going on in Bolivia. I’d also like to greet those who contribute to the debates, as well as those who (like me until now) limited their role to one of reading & thinking about the many things said & happening there, perhaps (like me) with the belief that there are a lot of small & not so small truths held by the vast majority of contributors, & that whilst we each may have our own opinions we’re at a time when many questions can & should still be raised amongst ourselves (I personally equate Bolivia well actually almost all Latin America as a teenager, full of energy & dreams but not sure exactly where to go, surely it’s in such growing phases that lots of things need to be asked, things tried, mistakes made, just hopefully avoiding making big ones, using the head a bit) & all those with a role in shaping the country’s future, however small that may be.

I don’t have much time now so will just say that my upmost thought right now is that if the people of Bolivia are in an interesting place at an interesting time, the people of Cochabamba are right at the heart, the very vortex, of the whole shebang. And what you people think, say, do, vote for will be decisive in WHAT the immediate future holds for Bolivia, & HOW this immediate future, & the steps that follow on from there, is created.

How you guys get round to this is up to you, the only suggestions I’d feel like making right now are those pertinent anywhere in a phase of change, namely:

1. when change is needed it must be made & everyone should be willing to accept this. If only because not making any changes means not dealing with the issues, this won’t eradicate the need though, it’ll just cover it like in a pressure cooker, & the longer it’s covered the more heat that builds up

2. what changes are made are a question of NEGOTIATION between the various forces at hand. For this to be possible one yes needs to be willing & open to dialogue & listening to the other side(s), but not only that, it’s essential you’re also willing to concede something from your side. And more than that, as we’re not talking about simply haggling over the price of some oranges you’re buying at the market, to be prepared to look at the wider picture, what’s right for the country as a whole, & not only how many oranges you’re getting to the buck.

3. the rules of the game need to be respected, no - more than that – DEFENDED hand & tooth by all players in the game. The game is called – at least for the time being one hopes – Democracy (that’s how Evo got in wasn’t it?). When one side starts playing with other rules the other side gets scared, just like we saw last week (on this point like various others - for the time being at least, from what I’ve seen & heard - I have a different view to Jim, although respecting the way he sees things, his angle is a different one but I wouldn’t question that his heart isn’t in the right place) which leads to “well if they don’t play by the rules why should we? Heck I may not even be worried about the game or set we’re playing now but I am a bit about the rest of the match!” Leaders play a crucial role in this, & the higher you are the greater your responsibility in ensuring the game is being played right. That’s why even if Manfred may have sparked things off, & without wanting to get into the debate now as to who is to blame for what, I personally believe Evo (official or defacto leader of the poor, the campesinos, MAS & the cocalero’s unions not to mention also the country…) had a greater responsibility for ensuring the reaction was both of the appropriate type & proportionate in size, within the rules of the game, calm thereby reigning sovereign. Would have been good for his image too, not to mention unity in the country, both things which would increase his power base there, if nothing else.. but heck guess everyone’s got the right to make mistakes, particularly in a growing-up phase.

Anyhows, back to my original point (which is the same as Jim’s really), you guys in Cbba can do a lot of things there now. For your city & for the whole country. Bridging the gap between Andes & oriente, city & countryside, left & right, pale & less pale, government & opposition, ain’t anyone else in Bolivia called onto this right now, ain’t anyone else that can do this quite yet. So, speak to each other, find a way to work things out, what happened last week was probably a good thing in a funny sort of way, particularly if you can use it to ensure it doesn’t happen again, was just a little skid off-road & who hasn’t done that once in a while?

Things got longer than intended & I must sign off now, so I’ll leave you all to your Taquinas on this Saturday night while you think about it, may they inspire you well as they usually do.

Hasta pronto!

Jack

PS. A big peaceful march in favour of democracy & the democratic process (& without absolutely any political banners or slogans be it for or against Manfred, Evo, autonomy, 2/3’s etc) by 100, 200, heck 300.000 Cochabambinos, lots of women & kids, different colours in the mutltitude, no sticks, finishing in the Plaza Principal, wouldn’t that be a good idea? Make a show of strength but show no political colours, get the politicians on both sides to see you’re a vote they need to go after, maybe get them to start reasoning a bit, that you’re guys they can’t manipulate but people they need & that can even set an example to them… Show guys from outta town that they can’t just barge in when they want & do what they want there, they can come in 5, 10, 20 thousand for a few days but there’s loads more of you, the city is yours, they’re welcome in your house but some courtesy & respect is expected… Dunno, just an idea..

7:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jack,

You're being too naive with your dream of a peaceful march.

El Alto leadership has already promised bloodshed on Monday against the Transport Union if they try to work....how you like them negotiations.

9:45 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

I'll be surprised if much happens in El Alto on the anniversary of Evo's inauguration. If something does happen, that isn't a particularly good sign for him. Right now though, the government focus has shifted from Cbba to Santa Cruz and the flooding. There is an opportunity here for crossing political boundaries to work in concert, MAS, the Cruceño governmental and extra-governmental leadership and all. Last year we saw planeloads of relief coming in from Venezuela and the US. I'm curious what we will see this time. Will all parties cooperate to the benefit of Bolivia or are the wounds too fresh?

10:18 PM  
Blogger Frank IBC said...

Why does the Transport Union have bad relations with MAS?

11:08 PM  
Anonymous Pascal's Revenge said...

Quibbles aside, a nice post, Jim.

A request "from the mailbag." Perhaps you could do an expository post for us explaining the details of autonomy. Here I am trying to follow a discussion (and occasionally contribute) when I must admit I am not fully sure all that autonomy entails.

Just how autonomous is Bolivian autonomy in this debate? Like Montana is autonomous from Washington, D.C. or like Australia is autonomous from the UK, or what? I confess I do not know.

12:03 AM  
Anonymous culito blanco said...

I think thats the whole point, Mr. Revenge. Autonomy is just a word for NOT MAS at the moment. Sure, everyone agrees that it is needed and theoretically a good thing. You will always hear the more rational cambas bring up autonomy Spain style as a good solution to the Catalan problem (then again, look at the Basque problem) but really, it's about land and power. Does Evo get to implement the new land law in Santa Cruz, or must he defer to the local authorities to apply land reform as they wish? What percentage of gas revenue is administered by Tarija directly, and not by the central government?

Which are all valid questions with multiple good answers, but the key to understand is that "autonomy" was not spearheaded by an up and coming group of progressive political thinkers, and is not a direct continuation of the excellent tradition of hard work and independent thought that characterizes Cruceños. It was, pure and simple, a creation of the business community, landed oligarchy, and regional political bosses, who decided to create a movement out of thin air, using their pull with the televised media as a tool to preserve influence once their allies in the central government were booted out.

In the long run, autonomy will be a great thing, and the people of each Department will have an opportunity to elect all of their representatives, not only the Prefect. But for now, autonomy has been hijacked by Costas, Antelo, Cossio, etc., and whoever they owe the favor of their present power to.

12:32 AM  
Anonymous puntual said...

* Opinion: Manfred did wrong in calling for another referendum on Autonomy
* Consensus: I find most people agreeing Manfred did this calculated move for his own political gains.
* fact: most of the people asking for Manfred's resignation came from chapare's cocaleros, and the other group from regantes.
* fact: Evo is the current cocalero leader, and one of MAS' senator controls the "regantes"
* fact: Evo knows only one way to deal with his political problems, that is confrontation using Social movements.
* fact: Evo doesn't know "losing" when we sends people to the streets; they always gain most of their demands.
* fact: Rarely, almost never, the middle class would go to protest to the streets. They prefer "paro civico"; that means stay home, don't risk your skin.
* History: I hear from old timers, in the past, in Bolivia, when the middle class goes to the streets, they go armed, they go ready to kill.
* Evo with MAS, since day one, brought up the "race" topic as the most important reference on how the gobernment was going to be ran.

* My Opinion: I don't think the cochabambinos were Mafreds backers. As I can see, the middle class in cochabamba had enough of this "race" focus, had enough of MAS trying to abuse its majority, had enough to presence Venezuela in the making, above all, had enough of "paros, huelgas y bandalismo" (many vote for Evo assuming the latter was going to diminish).

I personally don't like polititians. I wouldn't risk my skin for any of them. But I could fight for a concept (i.e justice, democracy), for a cause (stop totalitarianism).


* Presumption: Maybe MAS also saw that fo the first time the middle class raised up (and middle class is a mix of races), therefore their inclination to put an end on the problem proposing "referendum revocatorio".

* rumors: I am hearing more than once; the cocalero killed; was already death. Cocaleros did not allow authorities to do an autopsy.
* fact: The person that helped Uresti, appeared on TV (hiding face) saying that MAS people were on the scene with cam recorders, getting close enough to film the faces of whomever was helping the dying 17 year old.

12:54 AM  
Anonymous Pascal's Revenge said...

Thanks, CB. That's the kind of thing I would like to know more about.

1:40 AM  
Blogger Frank IBC said...

I'm wondering if someone could explain to me why an Alteño somehow has more claim on the gas revenues of Santa Cruz than a Paulista does.

1:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

kibbles and bits and bits and bits....

1:54 AM  
Anonymous Bolivia Libre said...

To Pascal and you all, I was going to explain what many Bolivians in Santa Cruz think about autonomies, but for respect to the excellent issue Jim posted, I will not differ from the theme. I am attaching to you all the link of the autonomic proposition from the Nacion Camba, the supposedly separatist organization that is supposedly seeking independence from Bolivia. That way you can start to define by yourself and without the “help” of some culitos blancos from the Andes your own believes about autonomies for future discussions about the issue. If you do not understand Spanish, please speak up and I will try to translate it to my blog. That could take some time since at the moment I am in a Convention in Europe. Read and evaluate, you will be surprised these people were not as radical as believed in the highlands of Bolivia.
http://www.nacioncamba.net/documentos/nuevopacto.htm

4:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's going on now?

11:08 AM  
Anonymous culito blanco said...

nobody has crossed the line yet, anon. Aside from being a relatively coherent road plan for a new organization of the state, the Nacion Camba's plan at the link provided, stands out to me in two fronts.

While it is stated that indigenous nations, plain old nations (like the supposed camba people, even though up until 15 or 20 years ago, camba was to many a despective term used by the white elites of Santa Cruz against the brownish equivalent of La Paz's cholos) departments, and regions can have autodetermination, to be defined by law, they quickly slip in the following:

"Los Departamentos son indivisibles." Departments are indivisible. Therefore, if , say, the inhabitants of the Chaco region were to take autonomy to heart, and decide to break away from Santa Cruz, Chuquisaca and Tarija, forming their own Department and a huge energy powerhouse... not allowed. Autonomy will be controlled from the Departmental seats of power, even though the gas is way out in the rural areas. By the way, this has already been demanded and it is laughable to see the autonomists react to the proposal.

Second, the Nacion Camba plan outlined at the link provided seeks to establish an automatic 50/50 division of gas profits:

" En caso de concesiones hidrocarburiferas o mineralógicas, los departamentos propietarios, recibirán, en compensación por su explotación, el 50% de las rentas que reciba el Estado central."

This might be fair, I personally believe that the division of income must be done on technical grounds and yes, taking into account the history of our country and the fact from the 1960's onward, the central government heavily subsidized the development of Santa Cruz with international debt that Alteños, (and not Paulistas, Frank) also have to pay with their taxes. But wait a minute, aren't we in the middle of a Constituent Assembly? Haven't over 50% of Bolivian voted a new political force into power, and largely supported its major policies in the hydrocarbon field? Why not let the Assembly decide this issue?

This all comes back to the fact that the "autonomists" aren't seeking autonomy, they are seeking to control land and power. But in any conflict both sides must give in, and I think MAS is making a huge mistake by not supporting autonomy full steam ahead. Take this word away from the oligarchs and all they have left is Two Thirds. Take that away from them (accept it) and they have nothing left but their raw desire for land and power.

4:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is a laugh to refer to Santa Cruz as oligarchs. They have alway been in the west. Only Banzer got through to power, mainly because he convinced the oiligarchs that he would follow their orders by bombing Santa Cruz in the last revolt. Typical altiplano imperialist attitude toward SC.

-Marcello

8:22 PM  
Anonymous culito blanco said...

I have much respect for the constructiveness and drive of Cruceños, and I support autonomy for all Bolivians. When I refer to oligarchs, I refer to people on the list of 100 gross landowners published (for childish political reasons, I wish it was for action!) by MAS last year, to the owners of Unitel, Megavision, etc., and not to Santa Cruz in general. I just thought that was a big thing to point out, now enough of me :P

9:38 PM  
Anonymous Bolivia Libre said...

Jim, I can see by your post that you are finally trying to learn what the line that is not related to the leaders of the SS (Social Sectors) think, and that you are beginning to try to understand their positions; to bad that your rhetoric is still fare away from neutral.
Your proposition of “crossing the line” is in deed brilliant and I also believe is the only way we are going to be able to transform this Country without violence. The opposed to the MAS regime have tried several pacific ways to convince the regime that a crossing of the lines is needed, mostly trough hunger strikes that were repressed by the regime, including the taking over of a catholic church; which forced several well know socialist to cross the line away from the MAS regime.
You wrote; “The lines are drawn and each side is utterly dedicated to their convictions that they are 100% in the right and those who think differently are misguided at best, and patently evil at worst.”
You had compared, really, what the common Joe not associated with the regime things against what the leaders of the SS think. If you really desire to cross the line, you must jump the breach that exists between the masses and their leaders: yes the ones in your side of the line. The common Joe within the SS is mostly forced to participate into these violent acts and is not “misguided at best” like you imply or think. Go to their communities or ask the people that belong inside a syndicate and ask them what happen if they do not obey the leader’s decisions. The masses are slaves of their leaders which are composed by small oligarchies and in some cases even some small monarchies.
You say that these groups are fight for democracy when there is nothing democratic about their ways. Unless of course you believe that the soviets in old Soviet Union and Cuba in our modern world are democratic societies, like our President believes.
Go, Jim, go and really begging crossing the lines; it will be a refreshing shower of democracy for you.

6:22 AM  
Anonymous Camba Alzado said...

Culito, don’t you understand what Bolivia Libre was implying? You are attempting to debate the most radical position of autonomy in Santa Cruz. To think that the majority of Crucenos belong, or radically follow, the nacion camba’s precepts; is like thinking that all Pacenos belong to Felipe Quispes’s nacion aymara.
The people of Santa Cruz and many in the rest of the Country, wants autonomy to be able to control their resources and manage them accordingly to each ones reality. I will debate the two big issues that always come up to discussion when I talk with my friends from the highlands about autonomies.
Economic resources; Today, under Evo and all other presidents before him, all the money perceived trough taxes, royalties, etc, goes to the Central Government of La Paz. In there, the centralized government is supposed to sent back to the regions the amount of money or resources according to the “popular participation” law, pre defined royalties, etc. The problem is, since the money is in their hands, they do not comply with the law and only a percentage of the “established” resources return. That is why there is less medical personnel and police, or economic resources for the University, in Santa Cruz, than, for example, Cochabamba; which has a lot less people. With autonomy, the “established” quantity of resources will not take a permanent vacation to the central government, but will stay in its place of origin. The central government will be able to define where to put their share of resources; they could prioritise those places that were not self solvent if they so decide.
Police; most people in the highlands are afraid that Cambas want their own police to have a sort of internal armed forces in case they want to declare independence; really, they believe that. So, almost all the cruceno police come from La Paz, with their miserable salary. The centralized government pretend for them to find a place to live with their pay and to actually be happy. In La Paz, most policemen share the family house; this is the reason many policemen do not want to go to Santa Cruz. Other problem that arises from this is police corruption, you cannot manage the police from fare away, it is not the army; the police is in action every day.
Finally; oligarchy referrers to a very small segment off society having all the political power in the government, not to the 100 richest people in a specific region. You, the MAS and several others manipulate the term in your benefit because it sounds “good” as a way to diminish the ones that opposes your point off view; but in the long term, the use off this adjective will back fire on the centralized government and their followers.

6:27 AM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

culito blanco said, “. . . it's about land and power.”

I disagree. It’s broader because the dispute has racial, economic, and political aspects. Evo’s election does not bode well for the minority, racist, dominant class’ continued suppression of the majority class of indigenous or mixed race people. Consequently there has arisen an insurgency movement that is temporarily tethered.

Their insurgency agenda was manifest when Costas,Santa Cruz’s Prefecto, boldly declared the eastern region to be a sovereign nation, “La Republica de Los Llanos”. That call for secession has a clear nexus with “El Movimiento Nación Camba de Liberación” (that civil society organization that wants the Santa Cruz to exercise full sovereignty over economy, territory and culture, which BL cited). Its secessionist designs are revealed in a series of long articles on its website and have drawn heat.

According to Andean Group Report, October 3, 2006 (“Tension mounts over constituent assembly”):
‘Defense Minister Walter San Miguel and the armed forces are investigating the ‘ “extreme right-wing group called Nación Camba", based in Santa Cruz, which said that the region should declare its independence if Morales continued with his "hegemonic ambitions". "We are investigating to see who these people are and what financing they have to be speaking about separation and division," San Miguel said.’

BL cited their website as an example but now comes “Camba Alzado” to create a moving target by incredibly claiming that BL was “implying” something not contained within the post: that Nacion Camba is extremist and nonrepresentative. Camba Alzado does not counter define autonomy by providing us anything but vague and ambiguous examples of simple principles. BL’s explicit example is what we are left with.

But wait, if we read the list given at the “One-Million-Beers” Cabildo, we can see that the Cabildo leaders defined a de facto independent entity that would be merely associated with Bolivian central government. Collect their own taxes; enter into treaties with foreign nations (foreign policy); determine land policy as to current federal lands; control natural resources and other things that says if it walks like a separate nation and talks like a separate nation, then it must be a separate nation.

Race: The insurgency is made up of Euro-centric elites seeking to perpetuate their dominion over a non-white labor class by excluding them from anything other than symbolic representation, thus preserving their heterogenous identity’s power. The racist overtones are clear. In the east, the insurgents, often taller and lighter skinned, intimidate and physically abuse the smaller and darker skinned migrants from the highlands, generally through the paramilitary, fascist group Union Civica Juvenil who are patterned after Hitler’s Brown Shirts and Franco’s White Shirts. See the incriminating racist video: http://youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3D6tqNktl8goQ

The unconscionable conduct in that video is a function of the inherent mind set of the insurgents. Santa Cruz beauty contestant Gabriela Oviedo, a loser in the Miss Universe contest as Miss Bolivia, told journalists, "not all Bolivians are dark, short and poor. In Santa Cruz, we are tall, fair-skinned and educated." Saying such a racist remark on an international stage speaks to the depth of the racism within the insurgents' culture.

Economics: Evo renegotiated the contracts governing Bolivia’s gas (which elites opposed) so now there is big money at stake because Bolivia is starting to get its own fair share. The insurgents want that money and the power to control the natural resources within their spheres of influence.

Land and Political Power: Political elites like Guiteras and Antelo usurped incredible amounts of Bolivian land, by way of their political connections or power and governmental positions with the former ruling class. That was done in a blatant conflict of interest and breach of fiduciary duties. Thus insurgencyts leaders have a vested interest in maintaining a status quo that precludes societal transformation that endangers their privileges and advantages and a loss of the land they hold for speculation. Crystalized, this saying says it all: “No quieren largar la mamadera” or in English, “They do not want to let go of the nursing bottle.”

The insurgents would be in open rebellion but are currently tethered for the following reasons as stated in Latin American Weekly Report (“Autonomists Test Morales’ Mettle”) December 19, 2006:

. . . . “Army backs Morales
Costa was perhaps constrained by the fact that Morales has the army on his side. When the civic leader of Santa Cruz, Germán Antelo, phoned the commander in chief of the armed forces, Wilfredo Vargas, last week to request that the armed forces remain neutral he was told in no uncertain terms that the armed forces had a role and it would uphold it. Vargas spelt this out the day before the rallies, saying that the army would intervene if violence broke out.”. . .

“President Evo Morales is far from bereft of supporters in the east of Bolivia. Adolfo Chávez, the leader of the Confederación de Indígenas del Oriente Bolivia (Cibob), warned that if the Media Luna departments proceeded with their threats to declare autonomy, Cibob and its allies would break away to form a tenth department.”

1:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I cannot say I know what the leaders of the cocaleros do to their people when they do not follow their orders, but some time ago I conversed with my maid, a cholita from El Alto in La Paz; and she entertained my friends and I telling us the histories about she and her family during the events of the ousting of Goni. She told us that people entered their houses kicking the doors and “chicote en mano” (belt in hand) forced out all those that did not wanted to be part of the social movement because they needed to show presence. There is absolutely no reason for her to lie to us, and I believe her.
Yesterday, according to the press, I also so it in TV but I did not remember the name; Nazario Ramirez, leader of FEJUVE (that is the federation of the neighbourhoods of El Alto), said that they will participate in the march to oust the governor of La Paz. He was quoted “all the vicinal leaders that do not participate in the march will be considered traitors, and will be expelled from the city of El Alto and from their Social organizations”. If they treat their leaders, that have some power, that way; one can imagine that B-L do have a point.

1:12 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Anonymous:

Your track record as a poster is suspect. Why should we believe you now?
What evidence do you have?

Here is the video evidence that white cambas, Union Civica Juvenil, use whips on brown folk to go to their Cabildos or to adhere to their strikes:
http://youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3D6tqNktl8goQ

Where is your evidence? Are we supposed to just trust you on your good name, huh, Anonymous?

Oh, here is another video of the cambas when they came to Cochabamba to organize their enemies, the Kollas, into Manfred's private army, Union Democrata Juvenil, that shot and beat the peaceful, humble farmers and peasants:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CQf4N1VMHQ

I thank you in advance for your evidence.

3:25 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

This has been a thoroughly interesting thread so far from Jim’s original post on down. The positions have, for the most part, been reasoned arguments causing me to seriously consider the points of view being expressed. Hopefully my input doesn’t change that.

The question of defining autonomy is excellent. The range of possibilities runs from the type of autonomous rule enjoyed by the 5o states to full independence, with lesser forms of separatism somewhere in between. Those opposed to autonomy have expressed (to me) a fear that any move in that direction will lead to civil war; that is a land / power struggle; that it threatens Bolivia as a nation. Those in favor point to the lop-sided redistribution of funds passing through La Paz and the lack of a voice in their own government.

To be truthful, Santa Cruz does not impress compared to other major Latin American cities, but then again, neither then does La Paz. Cochabamba is a bit better. The police in Santa Cruz are completely overwhelmed; they have no capacity to enforce traffic law and can barely respond to major infractions. I seriously doubt they have even rudimentary forensic capability. In short, they need personnel and funding. In the US that would be a state concern. Here they have to look to La Paz. That in itself is good reason for giving the provinces limited autonomous powers.

Rather than outright rejecting autonomy, Mr. Morales’ party should be championing it and looking for a way to define it to the better of the nation as a whole. The very fact that there is a question weighs in favor of that. As a result, we have the calls of racism and “insurgency”.

To be sure I’ve run into a few of my neighbors / friends who have surprised me with their racist remarks… it’s not something I’m accustomed to…, but it has by far been the exception rather than the rule. I know plenty of “sun burn in a minute” types that go out of their way to help others regardless of their origin. Still, Mr. Morales’ insistence on labeling his movement “indigenous” begs for a racist response; it excludes a large percentage of the population.

As an aside, economically, I’ve been surprised. Evo played hardball with the petro companies and won in almost every respect. I’d hate to play poker with him. He gambled high stakes and appears to have come out ahead. We’ll see in a couple more years though as investment in Bolivia appears to be on the decline.

One other comment: E-G states that “Guiteras and Antelo usurped incredible amounts of Bolivian land”. I’ve heard this kind of claim made several times. Does anyone have some documentation?

BTW, I finally heard some direct confirmation of the coercive means used to get protestors out as mentioned above by anonymous 12:12 PM. I realize that that is not evidence for the rest, but I'm leaning much more towards believing it myself.

3:30 PM  
Anonymous Marco Ortiz said...

Grindio nobody really cares what you say. We already know that you just keep reacting to comments of others instead of providing any new idea or suggestion. By now you probably can put together all the BS you have written in this blog and other websites and write a book supporting MAS, Evo, and all the backward policies this government is putting in place.

3:57 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Marco Ortiz,

Now, tell us what you really think. :-)

Since your post shows you have the educational level of the typical "nobody", you must think you speak with authority as to what "nobody really cares" about. But the fact that you address me shows that you care enough to write about what I have to say. Your problem is that your absence of reading comprehension skills preclude an ability to engage in issue identification for you to actually debate a point.

Incidentally, all topics are set by Jim's post and we all are "reacting to comments of others" starting with his post. Argument, counter argument; a constructive position, a refutation and a rebuttal is the structure of debate. If we all just gave ideas or suggestions, they would be like ships passing in the night and there would be no development of the topic. I think you just do not like these drive-by comments examined for validity. But then that's just you.

Just skip all posts that start "El Grindio said..." since its clear you have an aversion to debating a point and have no clue as to what standard three step refutation might be when a point is made.

You are like the camba racists described above, they seek to cling to the world as they knew it but they just don't know how to make the changing world all go away other than by substance abuse at night and, by day, the documented methods shown in the videos referred to above.

5:10 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Norman,
Want documentation for my claims, do you? Please refer to these sources:

"Cien Clanes Familiares Son Dueñoes de 25 Milliones de Hectareas en Bolivia", Conosur Nawpaqman No. 115, Oct. 2005, published by Centro de Comunicación y Desarrollo Andino, Cochabamba, Bolivia. www.cenda.org

Carlos Romero Bonifaz: "La Reforma Agraria en las tierras bajas de Bolivia", Articulo Primero No. 14, Oct. 2003, published by Centro de Estudios Jurídicos E Investigación Social, Santa Cruz, Bolivia

Ferrant,/Perri,/Ferreira/Walton: Desigualidades en America Latina y el Caribe ¿Ruptura con la Historia? Banco Mundial 2004, cited in Alvaro Garcia Linera: "La Lucha por el Poder en Bolivia", in "Horizontes y Limites del Estado y el Poder". Ediciones Muella del Diablo, 2005.


Here's my documented case, like a rusty version of what I used to win national medals and regional trophies in collegiate debate:

The Root Cause Of Bolivia’s Problems Are Injustice And Inequity
“According to the United Nations, as of October 2005, . . . the wealthiest 100 landowners possess five times more land then 2 million small landowners.
The UN Development Report goes on to state that it is precisely this inequality that is the principal cause of Bolivia’s political and social instability, fuelling constant conflicts between a tiny elite and the general population.” (Leila Lu, “The Agrarian Reform that Wasn’t”, 12/07/05)


Latifundios Are Less Productive Or Sustainable Than Campesino Farms.
“Despite the fact that campesino farmers occupy a much smaller portion of land, they have higher agricultural productivity and supply more food to the local economy then the latifundios, which overwhelmingly cultivate plantation-style agriculture – vast expanses of a single crop such as soya, sugar, rice or cotton destined for export and dependant on the usage of large quantities of pesticides and fertilizers.” (Lu, 05)

Judicial Studies Exposed Elites’ Exploitation Of The Indigenous Class.
“Bolivia has been marked by political and economic domination of a small elite and a feudal economic system. According to Carlos Ramiro Bonifaz, director of the Centre of Judicial Studies and Social Investigation, the dominant land-owning classes of the region developed systems of wealth accumulation based on the exploitation of the indigenous labour force (ie charging workers exorbitant prices for basic necessities, resulting in the creation of debt and subsequent servitude), rather then the re-investment of capital or technological development. Instead, the wealth of elites went towards the purchase of imported status symbols.” (Lu, 05)


The Former Political Class Were A Bad Robin Hood: They Stole Land From Poor Indigenous Inhabitants And Gave To Rich Oriente Elites.
“From 1953 to 1993, more than 26 million hectares of land were granted in the Oriente. However, of this land, more then 87.5% was given to the wealthiest (in terms of property ownership) half of recipients, while the remaining half received 12.5% of grants. . . It is important to remember that almost all of the "unowned" land that was granted was in fact inhabited by indigenous populations.”

Camba Dictator Banzer Made Rich Cambas Richer At Expense Of Indigenous
“ In effect, the land reform program was used by the dominant classes to extend their holdings and develop interests in commercial agriculture and modern ranching. In the years of the Banzer dictatorship (1971-1978), this cronyism reached staggering proportions – 116, 647 hectares granted to the Antelo family, 96,874 hectares granted to the Gutierrez family, 115,646 hectares granted to the Elsner family (plus 73,690 hectares given individually to Guillermo Bauer Elsner), etc…” (Lu, 05)

Santa Cruz’s Wealth Was Transfered From The Rest Of Bolivia By Debt Forgiveness
“Due to the persistent habit of loans remaining unpaid, the Agricultural Bank was forced to close in the 1980́s – this after a state-ordered forgiveness of 44.5 million dollars in loans belonging to some 726 cotton-enterprise owners and some 188 soy enterprise-owners. Not to mention absorption of some 5.8 million dollars in private debts with the Bank of Brasil and 1.8 million dollars in private debts with CitiBank. The combined effect of these pardons was one of the major causes of the hyperinflation that Bolivia experienced in the 1980́s, resulting in the further impoverishment of the general population and an IMF imposed stabilization program that gutted useless public services such as health and education and privatized the profitable ones.” (Liu 05)


Santa Cruz Elites Often Are Historically Closeted Drug Traffickers
‘And thus, suffering from such arduous financial difficulties, many members of the Santa Cruz elite had no alternative but to turn to the trafficking of cocaine to feed their families. Luckily "…control of the political apparatus had allowed narco-traffickers to gain control over large expanses of land in Santa Cruz and Beni", and they "received direct political protection from government forces, especially from the Ministry of the Interior and the President of the Republic himself during the years of military regimes, making up an alliance between sections of the armed forces and the trafficking mafia."’ (Romero Bonifaz 69)

Camba Elites Act As Mobsters To Suppress Campesinos And Justice.
“When control of the political apparatus is not sufficient to gain desired results, large landowners often turn to violence.
"Between November 2001 and the end of 2002, 10 campesinos were murdered in the Oriente due to conflicts over land, and many social leaders, institutional representatives, human rights defenders etc have been victims of criminal aggression from those who would prefer that the situation of agrarian rights is not clarified." (Liu 05)


Camba Calls For Autonomia Are A Racist, Scam To Preserve The Evil Status Quo.
‘A response to the shift in power in the Occidente and the very real possibility of the December election bringing to power a populist government promising to nationalize the country’s gas reserves and enact land reform (MAS, led by cocolero Evo Morales who also would be the country’s first indigenous president – considering that 62% of the population identified as indigenous in the 2002 census, the fact that it has taken this long is instructive as to the level of institutional racism existent in the political system) has been the emergence of a nationalist separatist/autonomy movement in the Oriente, financed by petroleros and Cruceñan society (in particular the Comite Pro-Santa Cruz), playing on existing themes of the central government in La Paz taking an unfair share of the provinces revenues, and regionalism/pride in the cultural identity of "camba".’ (Liu 05)

6:30 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

Thanks for the links E-G. National medals, huh? Cool. Anyway, I do appreciate the links. I've got some reading to do now.

7:08 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

Thanks again E-G. That was interesting. You apparently cut and pasted the sources directly from Leila Lu's article, complete with typographical errors, from either upsidedownworld.org or ww4report.com. Her second reference appears to be from an impartial source, though she obviously is not. The other two aren't discredited, but neither are they impartial. I'll look for the cited UN report referred to but not named or claimed as a source. Perhaps I can find her cited references as well. Did you happen to verify them?

Also interesting is the hypothesis that the indigenous farmers working small plots are more productive than the larger plots being worked by the "elite". I'm not sure why producing massive crops for export is decried when there is such an excess of food in Bolivia. How is exploiting the land in this fashion different from exploiting the minerals beneath the land? I don't argue that there should be an equitable distribution of the wealth among those who share the labor, but many small, individual farms will not be more productive than the larger ones. It's Wal-Mart vs. Mom & Pop. I think Evo is more on the right track by increasing wages. I think the land grabs are more likely to end up in increased destitution unless he enables the indigenous to work the land on a scale comparable to the "elites".. or the monnonites for that matter. Still, it gives me food for thought.

9:38 PM  
Blogger Frank IBC said...

You apparently cut and pasted the sources directly from Leila Lu's article, complete with typographical errors

Ouch. Great job, Norman.

Anyway, I find it ironic that he feels the need to smear the Cruceños as "drug traffickers" when his cocalero allies from the Chapare are occupying Cochabamba.

like a rusty version of what I used to win national medals and regional trophies in collegiate debate

Hmmmm.. these articles are from as recent as December 2005. His time in college must have ended only very recently.

10:08 PM  
Anonymous Bolivia Libre said...

People, watch out, the Cambas are on town; upssss, the one we know is probably lubricating his pants after reading that the cuco appeared. It is so sad to read so much hatred to Santa Cruz coming from a scare entity that obviously never set a food in that land. E-G words appear to come from someone hiding in an obscure dungeon inventing a world where he can be the hero; who knows, maybe a camba bullied him in high school a couple of years ago. I hope he or she gets the psychological help needed, so much.

Norman; Leila Lu could be a great historian or economist, but she sure knows absolutely nothing about agriculture. She compares fertile, dark land from the valleys to unfertile lands from the grasslands; it is like trying to compare lemons with watermelons; both are fruits, but are not the same. If you intent to cultivate Santa Cruz land in the same way peasants do it in the valleys or around Titicaca Lake, you will have one great year and initiate desertification from then on.

Other big lie is that if you give land to the poor peasants, they will work it and better their life condition, where in Bolivia have you or anybody seen that?. The only people with better conditions in peasant quechua-aymara societies are their political and religious leaders and the entrepreneurs that risked in their trucks and become distributors; mostly people related to the political and religious leaders. The Santa Cruz agricultural industry is humongous, just enter Google maps, choose Bolivia and look with your own eyes what I am talking about. Some people risked their shirts, other used political influence and some just took advantage of and opportunity at hand to begging in the industry and many are now filthy rich. In the process, they have given thousand of poor Bolivians a better life, at least a better life than being a poor coca or papa farmer; And have also created industries that support other thousand of workers, mostly poor people coming from the quechua-aymara region. Ii is not our current government fighting to have Bolivian industries with Bolivian capitals? Or is that if you do not have a Quechua-Aymara background you are not Bolivian?

I could go on for pages discussing this, but I think you all got the picture here; it will be nice nobody is filthy rich and everybody to have everything they want. So it will be very nice if we could all be the president of the country, but for that we will have to take risks, use political influence and take the opportunities that come at our hand.

2:56 AM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Norman,
As to the medals, yes. It was a long time ago: a bronze at the national championship in Lincoln-Douglas NDT policy debate and a gold in California Lincoln-Douglas CEDA value debate although my strength was in extemporaneous (gold) and impromptu public speaking (silver) at nationals.

Given the above, I’ll take a moment to share with you about debate:
If you fixed typos as Frank IBC implies should be done, that would be considered tampering with the evidence. In debate you are not allowed to change the text of your quotation from a source except for the use of an ellipsis when you will not be reading something. The protocol was and is to use articles as warrants or backing for claims. When I debated, the Internet was not as developed as now. One would literally use scissors to "cut" an article’s paragraphs and literally "paste" or tape it on another sheet of paper where the claim was typed above the "evidence" with its author’s name and year published, which is what I did with my keyboard.

Lu's article was pulled from upsidedownworld.org in the issue that also published a Jim Schultz article.

Your source disqualification that Lu’s sources or that "she obviously is not" an "impartial source" would be rebutted in my next debate speech by claiming:
1) she and her source are impartial;
2) your objection should be overruled because she is a published political analyst and you are only a biased “active” Catholic, Republican, marine and as such you are not fit as an authority upon whose analysis one should rely over Lu’s analysis;
3) Nor have you done your homework and provided us with a superior source that disputes her facts or analysis; and
4) You have not proven her to be a flawed source.

Your next claim was:
“I'm not sure why producing massive crops for export is decried when there is such an excess of food in Bolivia.”
1) You have not established that there is an “excess of food in Bolivia” nor have you provided a foundation for that claim.
2) Your claim is flawed because you are a biased, suspect source of information.

Your next claim was:
“How is exploiting the land in this fashion different from exploiting the minerals beneath the land?”
1) Lu’s argument is that “they have higher agricultural productivity and supply more food to the local economy then the latifundios” and that it is sustainable.

Your next claim was:
“. . . many small, individual farms will not be more productive than the larger ones.”
Your warrant was: “It's Wal-Mart vs. Mom & Pop.”

1) you are comparing apples versus oranges; your example is of retail distribution and the argument is about agriculture.
2) Per Lu’s analysis, the “many small, individual farms” produce more and supply food to the local economy.
3) local production of food is good for the balance of payments because then less food would be imported.
4) You again failed to refute her analysis with better or another analysis.

Your next claim was:
“I think Evo is more on the right track by increasing wages.”
That policy is not mutually exclusive from the policy shift being advocated. Both can be done.

You claimed:
“I think the land grabs are more likely to end up in increased destitution unless he enables the indigenous to work the land on a scale comparable to the "elites".. or the monnonites for that matter.”

1) That is an unsupported claim.
2) Lu’s analysis refutes your assertion.

Norman, as you can see the structure of debate leads to closer examination of issues and the arguments pro and con. Especially, since the case I made would have been constructed (from more academic, field-specific sources) in more than the 15 minutes I had to fill your request, read the source and type my claims above what I cut and paste into that small window for comments. But then I do not have time to do that, I am not trolling for visitors to my loser blog like BL nor is anyone paying me for my leisurely constructed arguments.

As to Frank IBC’s silly drive-by comments, the first one compares a plant with medicinal properties with a drug that ravages humanity.

Frank IBC’s second sillier comment is: “Hmmmm.. these articles are from as recent as December 2005. His time in college must have ended only very recently.” If you extend his logic then if my source was the founding fathers on democracy, Frank IBC would conclude that my “time in college must have ended” at that time. :-)

That’s another example of Frank IBC's lack of logic, need I say more?

5:16 AM  
Blogger Frank IBC said...

compares a plant with medicinal properties with a drug that ravages humanity.

The cocaleros who held the city of Cochabamba were from the Chapare, not the Yungas. The coca from the Chapare is NOT used as the leaf, but made into powder for export. Even you should know this, E-G. Or were you just hoping that we didn't?

9:37 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

Thanks for the relatively civil reply and the information on the structure of debate. Obviously I'm not in your class. Still, I'll try to respond a bit. My intent never was to disqualify Ms. Lu as a source but to merely point out that, as a source, she requires further investigation rather than accept her at face value. After all, she has "published" all of one article to an extreme leftist website (not even an article in print?) citing a UN report with no identifying information and no way to validate it. (Actually, she pulled the UN report reference from her first source, the “Cien Clanes…” article from the bilingual indigenous online magazine. Since she provides no further identifying information, one is lead to believe that she never read the UN report herself). Of the primary source she does cite, she doesn't even take the time to spell the articles title correctly. ("Cien Clanes Familiares Son Dueñoes de 25 Milliones de Hectareas en Bolivia"). You should not correct her spelling, but shouldn't her publisher? Enough of that though. I spelled “monnonites” wrong.

I won’t waste much time arguing the excess of food in Bolivia. It supports Ms. Lu’s comment about the capability of the indigenous farmers. They produce plenty! Go to El Abasto on third ring to see the quantity of food thrown in the dumpster or the piles of vegetables being offered at ridiculously low prices. Bolivia is incredibly fertile. Why not use lands to produce staple crops and sell it to Colombia?

You spend a bit of time telling me that I failed to refute Ms. Lu’s argument that the indigenous produce food well. I never attempted to refute it but, per square hectare of land worked, modern methods with crop rotation, modern machinery, proper pesticides and fertilizer, will produce a higher yield. Do I really need to justify that claim? Perhaps you are arguing that much of the land owned by the oligarchs is not worked? I’m not able to refute that at this point. The essence of my argument though is that transferring those lands to the indigenous without enabling them to work them will fail miserably. BTW, Evo has made efforts that way gifting tractors and such to the indigenous. Unfortunately, while some were in disuse for lack of fuel, he had to repossess other when he found that the benefactors were selling or renting them rather than using them to grow crops. Whether or not such a land grab is just is another argument entirely.

Now, getting back to Jim’s initial question of “who will cross the line?”, it appears from his 4-hour speech yesterday that Mr. Morales has decided to leave that to the other side. So much for building bridges.

One more question: Did attacking your opponent’s faith or service to his country work effectively in your debating career?

9:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amazing that you would dispute the assertion that large farms are more productive than small farms. Seems that the industrial revolution has been a proven success already, no?
Jim had a good article on this:
Bolivia’s Agrarian Reform: Coming Soon to a Home Near You?
http://www.democracyctr.org/blog/2006/10/bolivias-agrarian-reform-coming-soon.html

Members of the Movimiento Sin Tierra 30 to 50 families in all work 12 hours a day while only making enough for one or two changes of cloths. They were only productive enough to swll a quarter to a half of their monthly produce on the market. The whole community only made about $50 a month.

-Marcello

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you cant lump all "indigenous" farmers into one pile. There are small landholders that know what they're doing and still use beneficial traditional practices (polyculture, crop rotations, notill, etc...) which provide them with diverse crops, and surplus food to sell but also doesn't degrade the land and promotes biodiversity. Their agriculture will be totally different from an "indigenous" family that has been in the mines for 3 generations and recently squatted some land.
As for the big landholers, loading the soil with chemical fertilizers and pesticides and ripping it open with a tractor only helps on land that has been so badly degraded by modern mechanized agriculture that anything will boost crops but in the long term the land is unusable and they move on to virgin land which is why they need millions of hectares. Was man there to plow, plant, fertilize and protect from pests the amazon? I wonder how it got so big without some agribusiness entrepreneur there to design it? Being indigenous isn't about blood, it's about how you view the world and live in it.
For anyone interested in learning more about the future of agriculture read this
http://www.cnr.berkeley.edu/~christos/articles/agroecology&lat_am_farms.html

also check out and other case studies
http://zeri.org/index.cfm?id=projectFiji

Kiko

11:43 AM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

I'm cool with that as a "Cliff's Notes" example of how a debate round goes: you collapse down to your strongest arguments that you think you can win on. Usually after each side speaks and presents their evidence, you think they are right. . . until the other side gets up and refutes it with their evidence.

Great job by Marcello providing us an authoritative source that disputes Liu's analysis. However, in the final speech, Kiko rocked! I have a conflict of interest in that I believe in the position Kiko took. But still, Kiko rocked with that rebuttal speech.

Usually at the end of the round the judge calls for the evidence and reads it to see if it says what you said it says. That's what I will do later regarding Marcello and Kiko's evidence.

As to baiting you, Norman, usually I lost and got docked speaker points when I did that. But, it depended on the judge. Some were cool with it if appropriate and entertaining. Usually it is considered a fallacy of pseudoargument: Baiting an Opponent.

Advocates bait opponents by insults, personal attacks, criticizing who they hang with, or doing anything to make the opponent lose their cool, like you do. Once your cool is lost, generally your focus on controlling your argumentation is lost and mistakes are made. The best solution is to keep your cool during your argumentation and remain a rational advocate. Whining like you just did would only open the door to:
1) why your faith is suspect if you do not heed Christ's sermon on the mount and instead oppress the poor and obstruct justice; and
2) the disservice that marines do to our nation by committing war crimes, raping Iraqi women and girls, murdering Iraqi civilians and engaging in torture.
But that's a debate for another day.
Great job all of you. I learned a lot.

6:07 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

It may be an effective distraction when you think your position is exposed. Not too different from a miltary feint to draw attention from your weak flank. You seem taken with it.

8:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Boy you got that right Norm, a few posts back we learned all sorts of good stuff about El grindio. From the type of funding he pulls into make his movies all the way to the size of his massive penis.

12:32 AM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Norman,

When applying appropriate tests of evidence to your unsupported claims or your psuedo evidence itself and the person presenting it, I am taken with your lack of honesty and competence. A cursory examination of your false claims (based only on your personal testimony) show you are a "target rich environment". You disguise opinions as facts; make truth claims based on your say so; or hold yourself out as providing eyewitness testimony which then forms the basis of your fallacious hasty generalizations.

Example: On the cover of the International Food Policy Research Institute's "2006 GLOBAL HUNGER INDEX A Basis for Cross-Country Comparisons", it shows Bolivia is the ONLY South American Country whose Global Hunger Index is categorized as "serious". All other South American nations are "low to moderate hunger", as is Cuba, for context.
http://www.reliefweb.int/library/documents/2006/ifpri-gen-13oct.pdf

You again reveal yourself to be a hypocrite "active" Catholic that conducts a pro-Bush foreign policy of a covert and overt campaign against Bolivian government efforts to fight poverty and hunger when you boldly declared in your post above:
"I'm not sure why producing massive crops for export is decried when there is such an excess of food in Bolivia."

Your subtext is there is no hunger in Bolivia thus Morales should be stopped from trying to bring societal transformations that affect the status quo.

Since your wild claim of "excess food in Bolivia" is based on your personal testimony, then your credibility is subject to strict scrutiny. That does not bode well for people like you, Ted Haggert and George W. Bush when you hide behind phony claims of faith to advance your "active" Republican agenda.

In conclusion and for levity, you have been a bad boy with the credibility issues of that pervert "Anonymous 11:32pm". You both should hook up and spank each other in a session of mutual "catholic discipline" or whatever it is you "active" believers in each other's agenda do.

7:42 AM  
Blogger Frank IBC said...

You're such a joke, E-G, given that you make ridiculous claims about Cruceños being involved in drug trafficking, while ignoring the "beam" of your allies the cocaleros from the Chapare, who have been strangling the life out of the city of Cochabamba - claiming that their coca, which is grown for export, is nothing but a "medicinal plant".

Now you may be dismissed.

10:21 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

That's intersting; I said that there is excess food and E-G thinks I said that there is no hunger. Could it be that there is excess food and hunger at the same time? Well, he and I have monopolized Jim's blog too much this past week. I'll concede to his unrelenting logic. I'd like to hear what others have to say about Don Evo's change of cabinet and his "Poncho Rojo" call up.

11:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All I can say is that I hope Jim can one day come to experience the glorious communism evo has in store for him - outside the ranks of the white-skinned nomenklatura - the same as ordinary bolivians. Jim, there won't be any more trips for you to Africa or San Francisco. Your white skin privilege and Soros salary will go the way of all things produced of value. But the comrades will work you over well and you WILL bend to their will, every day, all the days as good slaves of communism must. Then maybe you will learn something about the nature of morales' communism instead of just piously lecture all those who oppose it.

7:14 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

The histrionics from anonymous 6:14pm seem to be from someone who stepped out of a time machine with their cold war mindset intact.

Oh, but wait, they forgot the obligatory fascist scare-scenario about the domino theory whereby Evo's communism will then takeover neighboring countries, like dominoes falling one after another. That rant fueled the enormous wealth transfered from the domestic budget to the military-industrial complex by similar rants using "Vietnam" or "Red China" instead of "Morales" or "Bolivia".

But look, nothing happened when the US stopped their occupation of Vietnam. Instead, Bush recently visited there to encourage more trade just like his brother did when he visited China, AS THEIR PAID LOBBYIST.

No, I think the above was written by Norman. I think that based on Norman's unsupported claim that there is "excess food" in Bolivia. That strategic claim takes away from the significance of Morales' goals to alleviate hunger and inequality. It denies the stark truths in the International Food Policy Research Institute's analysis that of South American countries ONLY in Bolivia is there serious hunger.

Almost as if he gets his marching orders from Washington, Norman claims it is plausible to imagine "there is excess food and hunger at the same time" in a country with serious hunger issues. It's all kind of Orwellian except it is modeled after those claims coming from that alternate universe bunker against reality": Bush/Cheney claims of "mission accomplished", the insurgents are in their "last throes", or if you exercise your democratic right to vote for the Democrats . . . then "the terrorists win".

7:57 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

Welcome back E-G. You got me. I cleverly changed my syntax, style, and point of view. I added a touch of anti-white racist rhetoric and added a dig on Jim's salary to throw off the scent. As a matter of fact, B-L and I are one and the same too. I can't get anything past you.

Now, I'm not as up on history as you appear to be, but looking at a map of southeast Asia, I see Vietnam surrounded by Cambodia and Laos, "Red China" and a lot of water. Following the Vietnam war there was widespread extermination or re-education of anyone with an opposing view. (The Killing Fields from 1984 is recommended viewing.) Now thirty years after the war we are talking about normalizing relationships with Vietnam. I can't deal with your logic.

That said, I do not sign up for the domino effect theory of South America, so I guess we are in agreement there. So how 'bout them Red Pochos!

4:59 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Norman,
As you know, I and my fellow bloggers on this site have cyber-psychoanalysis skills whereby we can detect the multiple personality disorder that is the secret to your ability to post as different people. :-)

Setting aside that Internet power to do psychoanalysis based on a few sentences in a post, I admit I did not have an informed opinion "bout them Red Pochos".

Even worse, Merriam-Webster’s dictionary did not contain a definition for "Pocho". Like all good bloggers, I consulted that highest of Internet authorities and recent source for a judicial opinion in a California Superior Court case wherein Apple sued some Doe defendants regarding email issues: Wikipedia.

Since I am not in school and thus not at risk for getting an "F" for using Wikipedia, it defines "Pocho" as follows:
"Pocho is a slur used to describe an uncultured Mexican who is born and/or raised in the United States. The literal meaning of pocho is a 'rotten fruit'."

Since you used the terms Red Pochos and learned fellow and Internet grammarian that you are, I guess you mean "rotten fruit" of a "Red" color.

Since you asked my opinion, I highly recommend you do not eat any Red Pochos since you might get sick. Fresh fruit tastes better too! :-)

5:52 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

Now that was a humorous post. I'll tell you the truth, I honestly do enjoy when you get past the insults and get to making your point. While we are typically on opposite sides of the issue, your argumnets are usually well formed and well reasoned. BTW, with the exception of quick one-liners that I don't feel like taking the time to log in for (e.g. the Freudian Oblivian remark), I always post as Norman. I've got to hit the rack now. Have a good night. We can pick this up later.

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