Sunday, May 04, 2008

Behind Today’s Autonomy Vote, and Reports from the Street

Readers:

Preliminary returns report that 86% of those who participated in the controversial vote yesterday supported autonomy for the Santa Cruz region. Approximately 40% of Santa Cruz voters chose not to participate at all.

In adition, a 69-year-old man has been reported dead by the Bolivian press, asphyxiated from tear gas used by police on a crowd in Santa Cruz today. Several others are injured. This was the human cost of today’s Santa Cruz autonomy vote.

This extended post primarily features reports from the street, from four major Bolivian cities with a major stake in today’s Santa Cruz vote – Santa Cruz, Cochabamba, La Paz and Potosi. You’ll find those below. However, because we will have many readers today who are not so familiar with Bolivian politics, we precede those reports with some analysis. For those readers who just came for the reports from the street, feel free to skip on down.

Jim Shultz


Behind Today’s Autonomy Vote

Today there was a vote here in Bolivia. I call it a “vote” rather than an election because, while thousands of people in Santa Cruz today did go to the polls, the legitimacy of that vote is in real dispute. National election authorities have called it illegal. It is as if Arnold Schwarzenegger convened a vote, without national authorization, to exempt California from the U.S. Constitution – say, in the name of higher fuel efficiency standards. How should we interpret its validity or its democratic-ness? So it is with Santa Cruz.

However, even before Santa Cruz officials deliver their numbers, the result that really matters is clear. Bolivia today is a nation deeply divided.

The core of that division is not about the more concrete topics fueling the Santa Cruz autonomy vote – matters such as land reform, gas revenue distribution, or the export of cooking oil. The division here is over a historic process of political and economic change that many people believe in deeply and that others despise with full force. It is also a process of change represented, but by no means begun or owned, by Evo Morales.

Millions of Bolivians identify deeply with the process of change underway in their country. They believe it is aimed directly at lifting up their difficult lives and they have fought for that change for decades, against dictators and ‘democrats’ alike. Today by the tens of thousands – in Cochabamba, La Paz, El Alto, Potosi and elsewhere – they returned to the streets to remind those watching, and themselves, that they are still willing to fight for a ‘revolution’. Even if that revolution has become muddled for two years in the rocky complexities of governing.

On the other side are many other Bolivians dead set against those changes. Some are driven out of direct economic self-interest and they see Morales as an Aymara Robin Hood and themselves as the vulnerable wealthy of Nottingham. Some oppose Morales out of ideology, a defense of smart business against weak-headed socialism. Others come to their opposition out of politics. Evo and his allies stand in the way recovering power they held for a very long time and lost in a windstorm in 2005. And there are absolutely others who oppose Bolivia’s first indigenous president out of thinly-veiled racism against “un indio de mierda.”

And then there is the up-for-grabs middle.

Today’s twin events – the vote in Santa Cruz and the anti-autonomy mass rallies elsewhere – make three things clear:

First, in Santa Cruz, the wealthy elite that pressed the autonomy drive has demonstrated their ability to capture much of that middle and solidify a powerful sense of ‘regional interest’ that identifies Evo as its enemy. Others can debate whether Santa Cruz’s vehemence was manipulated or natural. There is plenty of evidence both ways. It is sufficient to say, however, that deep opposition to MAS in the department is a reality. This not only solidifies Santa Cruz as a huge anti-Morales block but it will intensify the desire of other MAS opponents in other regions to try to repeat the autonomy formula. Regional interest will now become the key weapon in stopping Morales and what he represents.

Second, the autonomy vote has unified progressive social movements in a way that they have not been since Evo’s election. After Morales took office those movements went through a quiet separation. Some, such as the cocaleros and the powerful national irrigators union (regantes) went into the government. Others, such as the factory workers union here in Cochabamba, stayed on the outside and leveled criticism in private but rarely took on Morales in public. Santa Cruz’ challenge has put them all back together in the streets. Today’s Cochabamba march was the city’s largest in years (see photo above and report below).

And the third thing that is clear is that what happens next is not clear. Bolivian politics has become a chessboard marked by wild moves yet no real change in who has the advantage.

At a practical level, the Morales government and Santa Cruz leaders remain in a stalemate. Those things that Santa Cruz leaders can do without national government permission they will likely do, such as creating a state-level police force and blocking Morales’ efforts at land reform. Morales, who spent today playing soccer in La Paz, will not send in the Bolivian army to stop them. That would actually bring civil war.

Those things that Santa Cruz leaders need national cooperation to do, like win a bigger share of gas and oil revenue, they will continue to just dream of. Morales and his backers will now become even more intransient.

Underneath today’s banners and calls for national unity is the reality of nation more deeply divided today that it was a week ago. The unity called for in the streets of Cochabamba was really a unity of forces opposed to Santa Cruz, not a unity with Santa Cruz. And in the region where autonomy was voted on today, the words “national unity” didn’t even make it on to a banner.

Bolivia’s next move is now anyone’s guess.


REPORTS FROM AROUND BOLIVIA

A day of combative voting has left behind one person dead, others injured, scores of ballot boxes torched and a nation absorbing the results. Thanks to a handful of friends around Bolivia today, we are able to bring you on-the- street reports from four different cities: Santa Cruz, Cochabamba, La Paz and Potosi. We have many readers in those cities and elsewhere around the country. We hope you will add your eyewitness reports as well.


Santa Cruz: High Heels and Slingshots at Ground Zero (Annie Murphy)

Depending on whom you talk to, taking place in Santa Cruz today is a historic vote to give this department it's dues, or an illegal bid to keep the status quo.

The national electoral court declared the vote to accept or reject the Santa Cruz autonomy statute illegal, and the national government also refuses to acknowledge it. As such, it's not the police but normal citizens who are running today's activities. At five a.m. cars were already being stopped and checked by those who'd taken it on themselves to block major streets. The same was true at polling stations, with citizen guards in headsets keeping watch while Civic Committee President Branko Marinkovich cast his vote in the upscale Las Palmas neighborhood.

In an elite neighborhood like Las Palmas, this "citizen guard" seems nothing more than odd and vaguely discomfiting. Little challenge is posed by a housewife in heels and her coiffed lapdog, or agribusiness executives, both of whom believe that prosperous Santa Cruz should have greater power not only in the administration of resources, but over their legislation and distribution. As Eliana Jaldin said, "It would be nice if we could give more to the poor, but you can't just make everything nice... Why should they get a break? The importance of Santa Cruz has been ignored long enough. We need to determine our own future."

Las Palmas passionately supports the autonomy statute, and with little to do, informal security passed the morning eating empanadas and yucca bread.

But in Plan 3000 many of the city's indigenous and campesino immigrants pushed for abstention and even impeded voting in some cases. The "citizen guard" isn't snacking on pastries in here. Truckloads of pro-autonomy men in their teens and early twenties carrying clubs, slingshots, and rocks arrived, with armed groups of ten to twenty each patrolling the streets. Meanwhile a group of several hundred MAS supporters -- some also with sticks in hand -- had taken up the main roundabout, with the two sides scuffling at intervals.

"We want autonomy, but not the sort of autonomy outlined in the statute," says Ninoska Murillo, a recent immigrant from Oruro and resident of Plan 3000. "This statute keeps the same people in power that have always run this country, while the public watches from the bleachers."

Yet both sides say that they don't want or expect this autonomy statute to divide Bolivia, and that today's vote, legal or not, is just a way for Santa Cruz to increase its bargaining power in eventual negotiations. And, it's a reminder of the common demand across political and social classes for decentralization. From Las Palmas elites to the working class from Plan 3000, there's a clear need in Santa Cruz for law and order at the local level. The city may be Bolivia's economic engine, but today it feels like a forgotten frontier town.

Update: 10pm

The scuffles of earlier in the day turned into full-out acts of violence. The percentages of voter abstention are also striking. Almost 40% across the whole dept seems very high, and 62% in Montero more striking still. There are now reports of one possibly two people dead, and an Erbol headline says that this is the most violent vote in 25 years of democracy. I went to a celebration rally at Plaza Principal. Santa Cruz’s governor, Ruben Costas talked about "the creation of a new republic and modern state," while the head of the Civic Committee said now the MAS government has no choice but to respect the vote; "that we've put a face to autonomy, and now must give it force." This was punctuated by cheers of “Autonomy!” and “No more fear, goddammit!”

Annie Murphy is a freelance journalist in Santa Cruz.


Cochabamba: Tens of Thousands Take to the Streets (Leny Olivera and Aldo Orellana)

Today’s march began at 9am from several different points of the Department of Cochabamba.

The most active movements participating included factory workers, irrigators, youth and cultural organizations, rural teachers, farmer associations from rural communities such as Tapacari, Aiquile, Bolivar, and Colomi. Also present were many students, music groups, and other sectors of the city.

All the sectors displayed clear messages on the banners they carried – such as "United Bolivia, Never Divided", carried next to Bolivian flags of all size and indigenous whipalas. The slogans shouted by those marching also spoke of their desire for the recognition of Bolivia’s diversity. One group of young people conveyed that message very well, marching together dressed in nine different forms of dress associated with each of the nation’s departments.

Something else that characterized the diversity and unity of the huge march was the presence of so many kinds of musical groups – from bands, to folkloric music, to indigenous songs played with wind instruments, an expression of cultural resistance. The music played at the beginning and throughout the Cochabamba march demonstrated an intention to build and fight for change without violent confrontations. It was also striking yesterday, the day before the march how the number of Bolivian flags for sale in the marketplace was as many as for Bolivian Independence Day the 6th of August.

Leny Olivera


Tens of thousands of people turned out in the streets of Cochabamba today. Never in the history of the department have so many taken to the streets under a single slogan, “Bolivia united.” The march began from at least 8 different points around the Cochabamba Valley, converging at a steel and concrete bridge an Avenida Blanco Galindo, three kilometers from the city center.

The factory workers marched in first, followed by a wide variety of rural and urban social movements, including both old and young. From far away one could see an ocean of Bolivian flags, in red, yellow and green, along with wiphalas and the blue flag of Cochabamba. As noon arrived social movements continued to arrive. Leaders began speaking at 1pm, after the singing of the Bolivian national anthem. Leaders from farmer groups, the irrigators, and some elements of the MAS party spoke to the march, as did Isaac Avalos, a prominent farmer leader from Santa Cruz.

At the conclusion of the rally, marchers shouted their support for a variety of points including a call for Bolivian unity, the bringing to trial of the governors of the four departments of the “media luna” and Manfred Reyes Villa of Cochabamba for trying to break up Bolivia, the convening of a national vote on the proposed new constitution, and the expulsion of U.S. Ambassador Phillip Goldberg. The crowd also rejected Santa Cruz’s autonomy statutes and declared an ongoing mobilization to re-found the nation.

Aldo Orellana

Leny Olivera and Aldo Orellana, both social movement activists in Cochabamba, work for The Democracy Center.


La Paz: A Quiet Sunday Morphs into a Day of Protest (Julia McDowell)

Near the university, La Paz seems its usual, sleepy Sunday-self. Few stores are open, and only a fraction of the usually chaotic flocks of mini-busses and taxis are making their rounds. Families and couples stroll the quiet streets, eating ice cream and enjoying the morning sun. A few dozen students stand in atrium, some holding flags and signs, congregating for a march, a popular weekend activity. Small charges of dynamite explode somewhere, echoing against La Paz’s valley walls. No one flinches, or even looks up from their conversations and sign painting endeavors.

As stragglers arrive to fill in gaps at the university, the marchers form their ranks, holding up signs that say “No to Autonomy!” and “Bolivia United!” They march down La Paz’s vacant thoroughfare, the Prado, to the U.S. Embassy, chanting their desire for Ambassador Goldberg’s untimely death. The Americans, one professor explains, have always supported fascism in Bolivia.

Heading north, the rumble of a crowd is audible. The scant assortment of passersby begins to thicken, as vendors sell popsicles, flags, and other parade-type accessories. Turning the bend, the city’s main artery suddenly opens out onto a massive concentration of thousands of indigenous peasants in the Plaza de los Heroes, a traditional meeting point for protests. Indigenous groups have come from provinces all over the Department of La Paz, representing cocaleros, agrarian unions, and ayllus. City-dwellers have joined in, as well.

Today, there are more Bolivian flags than wiphalas, the indigenous rainbow checkered flag that has come to symbolize the fight for social justice of indigenous peoples and peasants. Women sit on the curbs and pull oca, chuño, and habas out of their woven aguayo packs. They eat and share with their neighbors. The plaza begins to look like an enormous picnic. Then, representatives of the various unions and indigenous communities begin to speak in Aymara and Spanish over a scratchy loudspeaker to the plaza, a sea of heads frequently topped with derby hats or floppy denim. Some of the leaders threaten violence, should Santa Cruz decide to press their separatist agenda. Most speak of the unity of the Bolivian people.

Julie McDowell, a former U.S. Fulbright scholar now works on water project development in La Paz.


Potosi: Miners and Dynamite (Lily Whitesell)

The morning of May 4, a campesino march wound its way through the streets of Potosi, filling the air with the scent of dynamite sticks and interrupting the otherwise quiet Sunday morning with their energetic chants. 'Bolivia, unida, jamas sera vencida' was their message of choice, waving wiphalas and Bolivian flags. As one group reached the main plaza, they broke out with, 'Kausachun constituyente, wañuchun oligarcas' expressing support for the Constituent Assembly and their disdain for Bolivia's wealthy elite. The crowd totaled roughly 2,000, gathering in front of the mayor's office to hear speeches given over loudspeakers into the early afternoon.

Why did they come to Potosi? One demonstrator carrying a wiphala said: Nuqayku kayman jamunku... Nuqayku kayku de la provincia linares distrito 7. Separatismo Boliviata mana munaykuchu. Chayrayku noqayku jamuyku kaypaqchaman kay Potosiman. (We came here... from the Linares province. We don't want separatism in Bolivia. That's why we came here today to Potosi.)

Lily Whitesell, a social justice activist from Maryland has lived in Bolivia for two years and works for The Democracy Center.

[A special note to our readers in La Paz. Thanks to so many of you who turned out and help ed make the event Friday such a huge success. The auditorium was packed, including the balcony, about 400 people.]

Photo Credit: Aldo Orellana

91 Comments:

Anonymous galloglass said...

Well voting in Yapacani has been completely shut down because MAS supporters and cocaleros from Chapare burned ballot boxes, physically assaulted jurados (those in charge of maintaining the integrity of the vote), beat reporters, and in some cases ransacked homes that had Si propaganda. In Montero, masista hordes were repulsed. Jimbo, is this what you call "democracy from the bottom up?"

11:58 AM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

Galloglass is forgeting about the nazi paramilitary hordes of UJC that are hitting citizens with their cars in Montero...

1:47 PM  
Anonymous Benjamin said...

I'm just back in Cochabamba from a week in Chiquitania. I was surprised at the massive presence of "Autonomia Si" and the almost complete absence of "No" propaganda in the tranquil villages. This seemed oddly like election campaigns in former "communist" countries in Eastern Europe.

On Tuesday, I began to understand why: the surazo hit the region and temperatures were close to zero (or so it seemed), forcing me to put on the only sweater I had brought, my "Evo" sweater from Cochabamba. As I entered a bar that night, I was taken aback by a graffiti next to the entrance: "El pueblo te vigila: Maldita Masista Cuidado!"

I was beginning to feel very uncomfortable in my cozy sweater. Nasty images from the Nazi era came to my mind.

In a climate of fear and oppression, it is difficult to imagine that real democracy can develop.

2:09 PM  
Anonymous galloglass said...

Benjamin: You arrived in Chiquitania with your preconceived notions and saw what you wanted to see. Give me an effin break,,,Santa Cruz is communist Easter Europe? And why is communist in quotes? Would you wear a Rangers jersey going into a Celtic pub? Or a Steelers jersey going into a Browns bar? Ego...who has the UJC attacked today? Everything I've seen is self-defense from Masistas attacking and destroying schools and beating voters, men and women alike. Just watch the video coverage on any tv station.

2:19 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

Galloglasss... in a true democracy, there is no problem if you go to a Rangers bar wearing your Celtic's jersey... This is the point. Capicci?

Regarding the UJC, do you consider the act of hitting citizens with cars a resource of "self-defense"? Well, that explains why you are not able to understand that in a true democracy there is no problem if you wear a Celtic's jersey in a Rangers bar... For your illustration: the self-defense applies only if the defense resource is proportional to the force applied by the attacker... It's easy, very easy

Regards

2:49 PM  
Anonymous hippie_Americano said...

I Hope there is no more violence today.

I was wondering, what happens to the vote of millions of Bolivian immigrants in Spain, Usamerica, Argentina, and around the world?

Would you need to have lived or be born in Santa Cruz to vote? That wouldn't make sense because so many greaet Cruceños were born in Oruro, Cochabamba, Beni, etc.

What if you lived there for 2 years or 5 years before emigrating?

Or is it only those who can afford to fly back to vote?

Someone should ask Ruben Costas although clearly, since the Autonomy Statue was written of by and for the Comite Civico SCZ. and the groups of power that it represents (without any input from the public) the decision was already made.

paz

3:21 PM  
Anonymous galloglass said...

More democracy from the bottom up!!!
http://www.noticias24.com/actualidad/?p=13916

Partidarios de Evo atacan e incendian un canal de TV opositor en Bolivia.
Manifestantes en la ciudad de El Alto, aledana a La Paz, que rechazan el referendo autonómico que se celebra hoy en el departamento boliviano de Santa Cruz, atacaron e incendiaron la sede de una televisora propiedad del prefecto paceño José Luis Paredes, informaron medios locales.
When did they UJC ever burn buildings down, decapitate dogs, and beat women?

4:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No doubt Santa Cruz is leading parts of Bolivia to more violence and chaos for the sole purpose of maintaining their gains. Those gained during the time a so-called Camba dictator (Banzer Military Coup and Banzer through negotiated results of the ballots) ruled the centralized government handing out many of the top jobs to those of his region, related to him directly or by financial ties. Then, there were those during Estenssoro, Goni, Tuto, Mesa and Rodriguez's successive governments who lined their pockets with side-deals and accumulated large land holdings directly through their positioning at the "Centralized" government of La Paz. Minister of Health, Joaquin Monasterio - now owner of a major opposition tv UNITEL. Minister of Economy Carlos Kempff Saavedra who is now funelling his support to Marinkovich and the other non-elected Comite Civico talking heads are just two examples of dozens of others. The elite that was perfectly ok with centralization if it was to their personal benefit is not dressed in pseudo-democratic costume defending regional rights.

As for Galloglass defending the UCJ, you have the democratic right to do so and as the ACLU once said I will defend your right to say the sun is cubic if you want but I do suggest you would have a better audience at any of those neo-nazi sites that may agree that the swastika wearing, women, child, elder beating, and "ethnic cleansing" pamphlet throwing hoards like UCJ.

Finally, I voted pro-autonomy at the national referendum and I do think it is crucial to decentralize through legal, agreed procedural means. I do not agree with the Statutos Ridiculos of a pseudo-independent state requiring a visa to say Texans to visit California and the rest of the nonsense in those statutes.

4:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Me again,

2 things:

TYPO 1) The elite that was perfectly ok with centralization if it was to their personal benefit is NOW dressed in pseudo-democratic costume defending regional rights. Like the wolf dressed in lamb's wool.

CLARIFY 2) "So-called Cambas" Back then, when they were the government and not the opposition they only used the term "Cambas" to refer to their lowland indigenous servants. For example, they might say; Soy propietario de tantas hectareas con todo y sus cambas. Or suggest to one another; Y porque no te conseguis un par de cambas que vengan y limpien todo esto.

4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Galloglass,

In answer to your question, the last time they beat women was when they paid their January visit to Cbba a year ago. On the rest, you'll have to do your own research. Shouldn't be hard though.

5:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Key provisions of Bolivia autonomy vote
By the Associated Press – 1 hour ago

Here are some of the key provisions of an autonomy proposal being voted on Sunday by the residents of Bolivia's Santa Cruz state.

_

_ Creates a state legislature and state police force.

_ Wrests control of the state's considerable natural gas reserves from the national government.

_ Grants control over land distribution, effectively halting President Evo Morales' plans for sweeping reform.

_ Allows the state governor to sign international treaties.

_ Declares Santa Cruz's population as "mostly mestizo," or mixed blood, and requires schools to teach that Santa Cruz is a "melting pot of Bolivians."

5:21 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

Galloglass... The UJC does not burn buildings... The UJC "lincha" publicly to political oppositors. It's obvious that the public "linchamientos", violence against human beings, is more deplorable, more anti-democratic, more bestial... And this is too easy too...

Regards

6:24 PM  
Blogger Ricardo said...

Typical leftist bullshit. When 'the people' vote on leftist populists, they're being freed. When the same people vote against those same populists, they were brainwashed by nazi propaganda.

Boca de Urna gives 82% for Sí. Go Santa Cruz!

6:45 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

What happens, Ricardo, with the 40% of abstention?

Perhaps they're the "people" who didn't let to wash their brain...

Anyway... Can you tell us how much do sum the Boca de Urna's 18% for the NO and the 40% of abstention?

7:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ricardo @ 6:45 pm summoned his powers of cliche, and wrote this:

"Typical leftist bullshit."

After which he stated, with complete shamelessness, some Typical Rightwing Bullshit.

:-D

7:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We observed the parade this morning. It didn't seem a huge crowd, though it was substantial. The "tens of thousands" seems an exaggeration.

This evening we followed the path of the parade. It wasn't hard. The amount of trash and litter was amazing. It was easy to see where the parade ended - the trash stopped. One scene of irony was a trash dumpster surrounded by litter and garbage discarded on the ground next to it.

If the intent was to win the Cochabambinos over to their side, coming into our home and trashing wasn't the right approach.

7:28 PM  
Blogger BOLIVIA LIBRE said...

Ego Evo, you are so hook up on your intent of misinforming it seams you are being paid by Evo himself, a couple of true’s to help you discern things for the moment.

The maSSist zealot injured in Montero, according to you hit by a UJC car, actually fell and was run over by the wheels of the truck he was being transported by after burning ballots and at the moment to be heading to other electoral court. So fare that is what is in the news and by what I so and being his own maSSist associates who say so, I don’t think this is going to change towards your fallacy.

The 40% of abstention you mention I haven’t hear at all, you should be clever enough to know better not to invent something like this so early in the day. Never the less, in any democratic election the results come from the valid votes, thus your boss Evo Morales won direct access to the Bolivian presidency with only 47% of the votes because the blank, null and abstention votes where not taking in account.

I am currently in Santa Cruz and I will write a beautiful post tomorrow in relation to the greatest moment of democracy lived by the country in its republican life. But not just now, information and some Paceñas have to still fill the night, cheers to you all.

7:38 PM  
Blogger mcentellas said...

To Ego Ipse:

Sorry, I just can't let bad math go.

Even a 40% abstention rate, assuming all of those voters would’ve voted “No” would still leave a solid majority for “Sí” (51%).

How do I calculate this? The results have 85 to 15. If the 100 percent of votes cast are 60% of some larger number, then the larger numbers is 167. Assuming that "Sí" didn't get a single vote from the other 40% of voters, then 85/167 gives us 50.8.

8:16 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dear Bolivia "Libre", you are so hook up on your intent of misinforming that it seams you are being paid by Branko himself... We know, as you confessed before, that you're really paid by an ONG to which you lie... But it plaussible to suposse that you're being paid by Branko too...

One UJC paramilitar's car was filmed hiting citizens in Montero... It's not my fault.. It's camera's fault... Please send your claims to the camera, not to me...

The 40% of abstention is just a fact... It doesn't have juridical value, but it is a fact. You'll have to live with that...

By the way, someone who believes that Nietzsche is a great teoretician of Marxism is not in conditions to write anything beautiful, neither post nor anything else, don't you think?

Best regards...

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

looking at some fo the results coming in before 40% was quite a average absention rate with the lowest I saw being around 18% and the highest 56%. Someone did teh calculations above and came out with 50.8% which is only just a majority - Im sure there are plenty where it is less than 50%.
BUT this is just a reflection of the peoples of Santa Cruz Department - surely it is the right of the peoples of Bolivia to decide if a department within that country should be given automony not just the people within that department.Otherwise you could have any number of groups declaring automony or other changes they decide they want (hell, I could have a referendum by myself so to not pay taxes - it would be 100% conclusive with no absentisism.
It is clear that any national wide referendum would reject this and rightly so.

I dont agree with alot of what Evo does, but the rich eliteists in Santa Cruz are purely out to protect their bank balances and are manipulating regional pride and tension for their own needs.

I hope it doesnt turn into more serious conflict - there is no way that can solve anything and it will make a poor country poorer and Santa Cruz will most like feel the brunt of it.

10:11 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

About the only thing surprising me today is the reaction on this blog. The "SI" won by a landslide (a bit more than I expected), there were some scuffles in MAS strongholds, news sources from the right hail it as a major victory while leftist news sources try to discredit it and Jim's first move is to look for martyrs. The only thing I read in this is that the whole abstention thing doesn't work very well, either for the right (think Sucre), or for the left. BTW, there would be no scuffles if the MAS supporters had just abstained rather than trying to deny others their opportunity to vote.

10:25 PM  
Anonymous poncho asustado said...

well, don't you think that the 40% abstenancy has to do with the fact that MAS supporters were being MAS democratic terrorists not allowing democratically bound people go and vote???

Just go to youtube.com, you will see how MAS supporters got into a school in Plan 3000 and terrorice, hit and run many people in there.

So, if you really want abstenancy to work in your favor, let people go and vote without any terrorism....if they don't, then i can beive the abstenancy bull crap.

PonchoAsustado

10:50 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dear Ponchoperdidoenlaestratósfera... In Plan 3000 functioned the tables for voting normally... Isn't it another tv channel than UNICRUEL on your tv?

10:59 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dear Miguel Centellas, you can't let bad math goes because... do you like to be the only one who does the bad math?

Let's see: the constituency habilited to vote ("el padrón electoral") is 935.527. The 40% of 935.527 is 374.211. Then, the citizens who voted are 561.316. Assuming there were no nule or white votes, if the 82% voted for "Sí", then you have 460.279. The votes for "NO" would be 101.037. Sum with me: 101.037 (votes for "No") + 374.211 (citizens who did not vote) = 475.248 (citizens against Estatuto). And last time I checked, 475.248 is more than 460.279 (citizen who voted for "Sí")... It isn't so hard to sum, don't you think Miguel?

Best regards

11:02 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

Ego, tu eres chistoso! Miguel's math, if anything, is conservative. You didn't like his results so you changed 85% to 82%. The latest numbers I saw were 86% for "SI" with less than 30% abstention. Let's wait a day or two for the final tallies, but my money is on the "SI". You're better off playing the "It's not valid" card.

11:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well afterall, who cares if the cambas nazis got 100 percent or nothing percent? It was a joke, a fraud, and only ignorant cruzenos manipulated by the media owned and paid by the Croats, Neo nazis, and old nazis who migrated to Bolivia can believe that anything will come out of this bull shit "vote"
Time to wake up Evo, put in jail Marinkovic, Costas, Tuto and their dumm asses followers. Ask Golberg to leave the country. Enough is enough.

11:33 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dear Norman, thanks for the apelative. "Funny" is the English term for Spanish "chistoso".

Regarding the data, I suposse you are able to read, don't you? Well, then you can read my "7:17 pm" comment. There I said: "Boca de Urna's 18% for the NO"

As you can see there, I never changed any data. I maintained the same data since 7:17 pm. In conclusion, it is not the case that i change the information. On the contrary, it is the case that Norman opine without inform him-self. And this is the only thing funny here...

Best regards...

11:42 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

Maybe it's time YOU woke up, anon 11:33 p.m.. Bolivia's largest department, and over a quarter of its population, just told YOU to f**k off.

11:44 PM  
Anonymous hippie_americano said...

Norman, Miguel, nos dejamos de juegos.

The vote was illegal, because Congress and CNE did not sanction it. That this democratic government let it happen does not make it valid.

Anybody remember the Venezuelan Constitutional Reform Referendum!!!

Chavez lost by 50%-51% to 49-50%. Numbers not important, but he was willing to LOSE rather than achieve such a narrow victory. He did not contest a vote which he may well have won in the margin of error.

Hows that for statesmanship!! Estos Civicos are fucking amateurs.

And Chavez had international observers. EU. ONU. OEA. Carter.

He had an electoral system that has been tested at least 8 times in as many years and as hard as the NED tried, it could not prove him corrupt.

Meanwhile, Civicos could have pulled off the greatest ROBO of the century. We will never know, because they didn't have the offical CNE counting machines. No observers. Not even the Embassy had the balls to back them officially. But you don't care, on a measly 51% margin (in your best case)??

Y vuelvo a preguntar. Los imigrantes? No tenemos derecho a decidir?

Paz

11:49 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

I guess american hippies don't like democracy when things don't turn out the way they wanted.

11:58 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

Frank... Near to 460.000 bolivian citizens (less than 5% of bolivian population) just told "f**k off" to their selves...

12:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hitler's children in Santa Cruz. Cambas are retarded, only that explains their behavior. Carnaval, cocaine, magnificas/putificas, lazy, corrupt, thieves. They are all like a Texas compound of sects where Costas is married to Mariknkovic and everyone else is married to sisters, cousins, mothers. I guess that is why camba crakers are so mentally retarded, and lazy. Menonities, mormons, nazis, croats, catholic pedophiles, japs, all mixed into a melting pot of criminals and crooks. I guess now they want to be free of their taboos and ignorance. Solution? Send them back to where they came from.

12:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frank_IBC @ 11:58 pm wrote:

"I guess american hippies don't like democracy when things don't turn out the way they wanted."

What are you doing here, Frank? Is this what the net has come down to - every public fora now must have a Free Republic Komissar?

1:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I deserve a SUPER MEDAL for having read the posts up to here!!!Bolivia me dueles demasiado en la distancia.

I want to be light-hearted and funny and address Mr. Frankenstein Inmensa Bola de Caca, but even that repulses me and I'd rather not.

Automania! Oops, uh, that was an upscale pub in Santa Cruz when I lived there.

Evo and those who occupied the streets and the government posts later need to clean up house. Enough with serving the opposition las pautas (PAU) the means to return to their kleptocracy on a golden platter.

2:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The percentages of voter abstention are also striking. Almost 40% across the whole dept seems very high..."

Really? Compared to what? US presidential elections have a far higher turnout than any off year election and the percentages of the voting age population for presidential elections ranged from 49.08% - 63.06% between 1960 and 2004 (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election with US Census Bureau citations). Took all of 30 secs to find online...Is the Democracy Center capable of any real analysis at all?

More importantly, on what basis are we to assume that every single person abstaining from the vote would have voted "no" and that every null ballot would have been a no? I'd guess that some non-zero percentage would have been "si".

"Annie Murphy is a freelance journalist in Santa Cruz."

It's hard to expect objective analysis from the reporter on the street, Annie Murphy, when she also happens to write for websites such as the New Socialist (http://www.newsocialist.org/index.php?id=623). The "Our Politics" link on that website is particularly enlightening as to the politics involved. Sheesh, Jim, at least find someone with a bit more hidden agenda to at least give an air of objectivity to the blog post. The militant references on that website make me shudder...

"A day of combative voting..."
"We hope you will add your eyewitness reports as well."

Combative voting may have been true in the few areas where one set of people were trying to impede the rights of others to vote or gain attention for their cause but reflects neither the norm or the mood of the vast majority of the city. MSNBC reported "only minor street fights were reported during the politically charged vote" and that the circumstances around the death of the 70 year old man could not be confirmed independently.

In a 30 minute walk radius around my house, there were lots of kids casually riding their bikes, young lovers hugging on street corners, and voters walking to polling places.

"If I was in Bolivia, I certainly would join the indigenous people in fighting the white supremacist right wing scum"

Great - now go get involved in the democratic process rather than complaining from afar. No one is taking away your right to get enough other people to agree with you and carry the day in a vote. Just please acknowledge the right of others to disagree with your viewpoint for equally valid reasons.

Bert

5:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No matter how it tries to slice or dice it, Morales' incompetent government had its racist patooty kicked down yonder by the freedom loving people of Santa Cruz.

It's crying time for 'em.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
May 4th is Morales' Waterloo

7:50 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

Ego, if the NO had achieved 18%, you might have the beginning of an argument. At this point we don’t know, but all the figures I’ve seen put the SI at 85-86%. You missed my point though. hippie_americano has the better argument i.e. stick with calling the vote illegal and unconstitutional. But the moment that you begin to argue numbers, you’ve lost. You’ve given legitimacy to the vote by referring to the totals, therefore let’s look a the totals. So far Miguel's conservative numbers still hold truer than yours, but let's say your numbers are correct. There never was a requirement to get 50%+ of the eligible voters to support Autonomia; just 50%+ of those that voted. The 40% abstention (if it really was that high, another dubious point) is just that; a null vote. In that case they have allowed the other 60% to speak for them and the 60% spoke resoundingly in favor of the SI. Don’t play the numbers – stick with the hippie’s argument. It’s really much more difficult for me to develop a counter-argument to that one.

8:34 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

anon 12:19 -

Ah yes, Catholicism, cocaine and carnaval are uniquely Camba traditions. {yawn}

8:48 AM  
Blogger mcentellas said...

This post has been removed by the author.

9:36 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

What I find most interesting about the folks here who opposed the vote, is that they seem to simultaneously hold the view that "they shouldn't be allowed to vote, because this is about nothing more than self-interest" (as if voting is a priviledge which must be earned by demonstrating that one would gain absolutely no "selfish" benefit from exercising it), and at the same time, "these poor saps can't possibly know what is in their own interest, because they've been duped by [insert name of conspiracy here]".

9:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

centellas,

And those young thugs recruited to be the police for the day at polling places. Where does that fit in to your definition of democracy, or are those the relatives you were referring to?

You have been in the US way too long.

10:51 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

While I almost always agree with mcentellas, I have two points of contention.

1) Try as I might, I can't find in the current constitution or La Ley Marco del Referéndum (LMR) where the Prefect can call a referendum. I agree that in a reasonable democracy he should have every right to poll the people he serves, but I don't see where he can. Article 4 state El pueblo delibera y gobierna por medio de sus representantes y mediante la Asamblea Constituyente, la iniciativa Legislativa Ciudadana y el Referéndum, establecidos por esta Constitución y normados por. The LMR states Artículo 2. (Modalidades y ámbitos). Existen las siguientes modalidades y ámbitos de referéndum: a) Referéndum nacional, sobre materias de interés nacional, en circunscripción nacional. b) Referéndum departamental, sobre materias de interés departamental, en circunscripción departamental. This appears to have been a matter of national interest so the following should apply:Artículo 5. (Iniciativa Institucional). Para la convocatoria a referéndum nacional, podrán adoptar la iniciativa las siguientes autoridades: a) El Poder Ejecutivo. b) El Congreso Nacional, con la aprobación de las dos terceras partes de sus miembros presentes. It does not seem to address who may convoke a Departamental Referendum.

Point 2) What's all this "kick the gringos out" talk?!

BTW, for Ego and those arguing the numbers, give it up.

Artículo 8. (Resultados). La Resolución del referéndum será adoptada por la mayoría simple de votos válidos de la respectiva circunscripción y tendrá validez si participa al menos el cincuenta por ciento (50%) del electorado.

11:05 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

In adition, a 69-year-old man has been reported dead by the Bolivian press, asphyxiated from tear gas used by police on a crowd in Santa Cruz today. Several others are injured. This was the human cost of today’s Santa Cruz autonomy vote.

Old Man Died of Natural Causes

Another one of Jim's imaginary victims, like the "third victim" of January 11.

Keep digging...

11:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frank Einstein:

The Nazi Croats, renegade Jews in Santa Cruz are basically the remains of the Nazis who escaped justice with the help of the Company in Action to South America. You must be part of them, otherwise how can you defend a group of war criminals who are in the poorest country of Latin America stealing the land, and other resources from the Bolivian natives?

Only twisted minds, with Nazi DNA can conceive that in this century their illegal privilege is going to continue.

If you people do not stop by reason you will be kicked out in the rear by patriots who yesterday showed that the cambas who voted yes are just zombies, brain damaged and manipulated and paid by the plutocrats who stole the richness of the country.

Nothing is worse than to see those dark skinned camba idiots supporting the white Nazis, it is a disgrace how those tugs beating up collas feel superior, it is a shame to think that by crying autonomy they will become one of the rich cambas. Money can make monkeys dance, as you can see the TVs, radios, newspaper are owned by the putocrats, all they do is to brain wash the camba-idiots, and paid the juventud crucenista who are just street tugs and criminals.

Only in Santa Cruz where cambas are brain dead with all the cocaine, buzz, can you expect stupidity like that. I forgot, Miami is similar, after all is the sewer of Latin America. Hopefully camba idiots will join the gusanos, contras, mommies, somocistas, who left their countries in shambles and settle in Florida.

I forgot if cambas are tall, white, and speak English, why don’t they go home to Miami?

After all you all have fat bank accounts and properties already overseas prepared in case the Indians kick your butts out. Although it must be hard for you the camba elite to leave a country were they enjoy stolen privilege as they do in Bolivia, where else can they have slaves, servants, feel superior, steal land, get cheap cocaine, screw magnificas, and never work a single day in their lives?
OCRN

11:34 AM  
Anonymous hippie_Americano said...

Ego, le aconsejo ni responder a ciertos "operativos_IBC" en este blog, si se fija vera que estos personajes estan en todos lados, siempre desinformando y nunca argumentando.

Norman, I'm curious, how willing are you to throw in the shitter 20 years of goodwill and increasing electoral transparency for a complete "blackbox" vote with no accountability whatsoever, and RUN by the people who wanted YES to win? 51%? I truly recommend that you listen to Chavez' speech after last December's referendum loss.

Marinkovich, Costas, and Tuto are rodents next to this man.

Same as the idiots who couldn't handle Simon Bolivar and Jose de Sucre 200 years ago, and instead wanted "autonomia alto-peruana" look where that got us.

Centellas, I really can't comprehend. Haven't you argued in favor of Institutionality above all? There's not way to justify this vote, Congress did not call for it. Period, no ideology needed. In the interests of preserving your academic stature, I would about-face rather quickly.

However, I disagree with Norman that the numbers don't matter. Since this referendum was illegal and is not valid, its only possible value is as a bargaining chip.

And these thugs WILL use a bare 49% or 51% victory (or even less) to enforce a piece of paper THEY wrote which allows them to keep their latifundios and send gas to Chile instead of La Paz. (Nothing wrong with sending gas to Chile AFTER internal demand is met).

What about 2/3?

2/3?

Dos Tercios? Al carajo, solo cuando les sirve, no?

Paz y Patria Grande

11:38 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

Ego, le aconsejo ni responder a ciertos "operativos_IBC" en este blog, si se fija vera que estos personajes estan en todos lados, siempre desinformando y nunca argumentando.

Ji ji... me das mucha risa, idiota.

11:58 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

hippie, I'm a little confused. What part of my last remark do you account as throwing away transparency. I believe I agreed with you stating that I can't (abbreviation for can NOT) find grounds to support the vote as legal. But if you choose to accept it as legal, then the numbers are overwhelming. That comes from living in Santa Cruz for the last six years and speaking with everyone I can on their opinion. I'd say about one in ten don't (note the "apostrophe-t" combination indicating the negative) support autonomy. I've also argued previously that of the nine tenths that whole-heartedly support it, I've yet to find anyone who actually read the statutes. man, agreeing with you is tough!!! As far as honoring Chavez, lay off the weed.

12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The difference is only 33,000 votes, considering the threats from the camba-nazis I believe Costas and company should be afraid. Victory? ja, ja,

* Habilitados para votar: 935.527
* Votaron: 570.671
* No Votaron:364.856
* Si: 483.587
* No: 85.601
* No votaron + No: 450.456
* Diferencia al favor del SI: 33.131
*

* Porcentaje que representa el SI sobre el total
* 935.527 --> 100
* 483.587 --> 51,7
*

* Datos
* Fueron a votar: 61%
* Ausentismo: 39%
*

* Sobre los que fueron a votar
* Si 84.74%
* No 15%

12:03 PM  
Blogger mcentellas said...

I think the referendum was about as institutional as anything else. It was more peaceful than, say, the 2003 gas war. Though today we recognize that as an expression of popular will. So why are protests (whether peaceful or not) legitimate means of expressing political preferences, but referendums aren't?

The 2004 CPE (the one currently in practice) actually does allow for referendums initiated by the people. It doesn't formally stipulate HOW those referendums should be made, so it's a murky area.

The 2006 constituent assembly election included an autonomy referendum. That lay, approved by the national legislature, explicitly pointed out that autonomy would be granted to those departments that voted "Yes" for autonomy. So one could also argue that the 2008 referendum is a repetition of a referendum already established by the 2006 referendum.

Look, I don't consider the UJC democratic. Not by a long shot. It's wrong to use violence to intimidate voters. Just like it's wrong to use violence to prevent voting.

But it's clear that a significant number of residents in Santa Cruz want autonomy. Like it or not, they want it. On what basis should their views be silenced?

And as for this pseudo math that tries to show that the yes vote only won by 33,000 votes ... that only works if we assume that EVERY SINGLE person who didn't vote WOULD HAVE voted "No" (which is preposterously unlikely). By any Bolivian electoral law, votes are counted on the basis of those votes cast. So the numbers stand. But even if an overwhelming majority of those who didn't vote had voted "NO", the "yes" vote would still win by about the same margin as Evo won in 2005 (53%). Or was Evo's victory also insignificant?

The sad reality is this: Like them or not, disagree w/ them or not, despise them or not, the Santa Cruz autonomy movement **IS** a social movement. It **HAS** broad public support beyond merely a "few elite families." Any serious discussion of contemporary Bolivian politics MUST take that into account.

12:51 PM  
Blogger mcentellas said...

BTW, following the math logic of those who want to include all abstentions as "No" votes ... in that case Evo did not win a majority of the vote in 2005, since abstention was about 20%. If we included those plus all the blank/null vote figures as anti-Evo votes, then Evo would have earned less than a majority -- meaning no popular "mandate".

But that's ridiculous. Evo did win a majority of valid votes. And he won more than any previous presidential candidate. That does give him a sort of mandate.

12:54 PM  
Anonymous hippie_Americano said...

Norman, the numbers may match what you expected based on your personal experience, but do you honestly believe that absolutely no fraud was committed?

Even if you do, will there EVER be anyway to prove/disprove it?

That is what I mean by throwing away transparency.

If the new claimed abstinence number of 25% rather than 40% turned out to be true, then yes, this illegal vote would theoretically have more bargaining-chip power.

But we will never, ever know, will we?

Paz, y ahora me callo.

12:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hippie: El Deber has the data that 698,968 people voted out of the 935,527 eligible.

Abstains: 25.5% (about 8% higher than 2006 and 7% higher than 2005)

SI: 596,918
NO: 102,050

I'll leave it to anonymous 12:03pm to do the math.

Making any sort of allegations without proof is easy - it's just as easy for someone to think that you are paid to refute the victory, but, as you say, we will never, ever know, will we?

Bert

1:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think we have just witnessed a silent tsunami which consequences we can barely imagine.

(No, not Jim's secret desire to be a "Magnifica)

What this vote demonstrated is that Santa Cruz's autonomy supporters is a valid and strong social movement to reckon with. More organized and credible than the dog throat slitters who wear moldy red ponchos.

Bolivia's political landscape is about to shift dramatically. By the way, since when does Morales care about the law? He has broken it ever since he tried to play a trombone as a kid, terrorizing the country as a cocalero, and now forcing down the country's throat a constitution approved by a minority in a military garrison.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
05/04 is Morales' Waterloo

1:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frank,

Three men died in January 2007 in Cochabamba, two campesinos and a student. Which one of those do you consider imaginary? My guess is his family feels otherwise.

Maybe try some factual accuracy on occasion. Might do you good.

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Automania?

I loved that place, many a night were spent dancing with beautiful ladies and sippin lluvia de colores at that place, I wish that's what we were talking about.

The amount of misinforation and outright rumors and propaganda at the grassroots level on both sides is shocking. Thank you Costas, Brankovich, Morales and Linera.

You four "leaders" are truly men of vision =(

JP

2:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jim, I'm tired of your inability to see opposition to Evo as anything but the rich and white defending their position or engaging in racism.

I deplore Evo because HE represents the same racism that has ruined Bolivia for decades (centuries?) - it's just the other side of the same coin. If you believe that people are fundamentally defined by the content of their character and not the color of their skin, how can one possibly be an Evo supporter?

For all of his failings, Goni implemented Participacion Popular, probably the seed of enfranchisement and belief in political inclusion which is probably the reason Evo was eventually elected. Evo is far more willing to play the race card. It's the heart of his entire appeal.

That and anti-elitism. Which, as history has shown, is equally misguided and destructive. It is the silly - but dangerous - belief that the problem is with the educated, or the wealthy. Yes, some are part of the problem. And some are probably part of any reasonable solution. How many smart, educated, patriotic Bolivians have fled the country? How much capital which should be building Bolivia's future has left? Not all the wealthy are evil or racist. Not all educated are elitist.

And what about those of us who believe that history has clearly shown that the economic policies supported by MAS are catastrophic for the poor (and rich for that matter)? I want nothing more than to see Bolivia's crushing poverty alleviated. I want to see more prosperity more inclusion, better, more robust democracy.

I just happen to believe that history has proven that some mix of free market capitalism and thoughtful government regulation with social safety nets are the best way to achieve this.

Evo doesn't threaten my position as a rich, white, positioned, cruceno. (I'm not). He threatens my position as a person who believes a Bolivian future must include all Bolivians regardless of race or pocketbook and one which creates prosperity for all.

I recognize (and deplore) the virulent racism of many anti-MASistas, and the defense of privilege that motivates many.

But their actions and beliefs do not represent my reasons for despairing the election of Evo. And there are many others like me.

Take off your blinders Jim. There are good reasons - noble reasons, ant-racist, pro-poverty alleviation, pro-inclusion reasons - for vehemently opposing Evo and MAS.

You may not agree with our economic theories or political beliefs, but have the decency and openness to recognize the good - fundamentally good - intentions of many strongly anti-Evo people.

3:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BTW I'm the above anon. anti-Evo poster. Didn't have time to fill out a profile.

If you want to refer to my post, just call me "Fuentes".

3:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

it would be nice to see some analysis of exactly how much Santa Cruz has benefited since the Reforma Agraria in terms of finacial handouts from the central government instead of just a narrative of who is saying what to whom in the streets...

5:43 PM  
Blogger redbeard said...

Good afternoon fellow grassroots political scientists,

Thanks to whoever (Jim?) for the thoughtfull introduction.

Indeed Bolivian politics and all Latin American politics has become a chessgame because of the extreme crisis of US Imperialism, due in no small part to the resistance and militancy of the Iraqi people.

President Morales doesn't have "backers". He is the duly elected head of government, representing, for better or worse, those who elected him. As such the government of Bolivia does have an advantage. It controls the "state".

Any apparent stalemate is an illusion because the 500+ year old struggle between Euro-american white power and the colonized Indigenous people of Latin America,the Caribbean, Africa and North America is a dialectical one.

The Indigenous people of Bolivia are not "intransigent", they are steadfast and self-determined. It is white power, our birthright, that is intransigent, but not for long!

Dave from UHURU Means Freedom
REPARATIONS NOW!!

5:44 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

Dave is Vanilla Ice?

6:24 PM  
Blogger chasqui said...

The MAS political spin desperately needs a new brand. Using fuzzy math against the Oligarchs only fuels the anger of the majority that deserve a certain level of autonomy and provide fuel to their radical wings.

The document itself has no consequence other than forcing the government to negotiate it against it's CPE. The James Dean inspired chicken-driving stunt played by the Costas and his conclave had Bolivia staring at the abyss and now presents a new beginning.

Counting and discounting percentages is arguing the number of angels that fit into the head of the pin. The will is for autonomy at the regional level. The government could fight in every department, but this will only acerbate the animosity between the parties.

The MAS should focus its spin on the illegality of the text and the PAYASADAS within it (e.g. art 7), the fact that neither Brazil or Argentina will recognize it. Next comes the negotiations, it is not clear if Evo will have a legal and legitimate CPE before there are legitimate and legal Estatutos Autonomicos

This will be become "the chicken and the egg" problem that will overshadow the "empate catastrofico" I am not sure that the opposition to Evo still believes in the Constitutional Assembly or Congress as viable venues. The "civicos" as a whole are not bona fide representatives (neither are some of the mov. soc.) and their proposal has not been through a process where minority views were heard nevermind debated.

I think the best way out is a new Constitutional Assembly. This time with a clear mandate: Distribution of Competencies among the Regional, Indigenous, and Municipal Autonomies. I am not sure if nine departments, 99 provinces or 35 nations are necessary, but a new CPE should only aim to provide a framework. Specific "estatutos" proposals should be submitted by each zone and approved by 2/3 of their peers.

8:26 PM  
Blogger BOLIVIA LIBRE said...

Huyyyyy, chasqui, don’t use the 2/3 expression, Jim might get sick and the maSSist goons will condemn you to a dog life in Achacachi.

Since the “results” of the referendum are not a discussion any more, unless you are one of the couple of Anos or Ego Evo that rumble about them as their last resource before accepting complete defeat, I will like to refer to Jim’s paragraph comparing Santa Cruz to California in a hypothetical referendum case.

Let’s see, as fare as I know, neither the US nor California have a referendum law # 2769 that in its article 6.3) says, textually. “As long as there is no departmental government elected by popular vote, the departmental referendum should be conveyed by the National Congress by the present’s majority of votes.” Both Schwarzenegger and Costas were elected as governors; in Bolivia we call it Prefect, by popular vote. So yes, good old Arnold could have a referendum in his hands if he will have the advantage of Bolivian law # 2769.

The fact that the maSSist regime doesn’t accept the legality of this referendum has to do with the “interpretative” law they violently pushed in congress with their SS taking over congress and not allowing the legislators form the opposition to participate; since that coup d’etat we are currently living under a tyrannical totalitarian regime. The “interpretative law”, however; come too late since the Santa Cruz referendum was already proposed and began to run and no law is retroactive.

The only legal entity, no, not Jim or his DC, that can define if this referendum is legal or not is the Constitutional tribunal, dismembered by the maSSists in their intent hide their wrong doings as “legal”, since no one could tell other wise. The problem for the Morales regime is that to elect the missing tribunes they need 2/3 of congress votes, and the SS strategy isn’t going to work any more.

This means, if proper, non partisan members of the tribune are elected, they will go over the thousands of lawsuits waiting for their review, in order, and the results of the maSSist proposal for new constitution is going to be dismissed as unconstitutional very fast; the Santa Cruz referendum will probably fail later on. The point is, Morales and his regime are against the ropes, mostly because they hit themselves, but now, they have in from of them somebody with an uppercut that can expense maSSism and socialism of the XXI century in Bolivia a know out for at least, the short time. Cheers for that to happen.

10:12 PM  
Anonymous Hippie Americano said...

que tal señor, ya se lo extrañaba por aca, pariente!

I believe your point BL is that Costas constitutes the elected government of Santa Cruz.

However, this is not the case, since Prefectos of the 9 departments are still governed themselves, by the Constitution of 1967, with modification sin 1994, 1999 and 2004 if I recall correctly.

Bolivia is still a Unitary republic, and the 9 Prefects respond ultimately to the Commander in Chief, Evo Morales.

And, as we know, Congress has jurisdiction over ALL of our territory, there being no constitutionally mandated or allowed departmental legislatures.

Fuentes, this is the sort of thing that bothers me, not at all your principled and somewhat well founded opposition to Evo.

10:54 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dear Norman, please excuse my sincerity, but someone has to tell you the truth: you’re lost, very lost in translation… Exactly which one of my comments in this posts made you suppose I am doing the political action of claiming for the invalidity of yesterday’s Automaniam survey? My dear Norman, you confused a “political demand” with a “political analysis”. When you try to understand the meaning of some action, what you’re doing is “analysis”, not a demand… Capicci? I’m not trying to invalidate the results of the Automaniam survey. I’m trying to understand the new political scenario. Verstehen Sie? Seriously, the difference between both cognitive operations is so gross that this explanation is redundant for intelligent people.

Let me try to explain you, with pears and apples, the new political scenario. According to preliminary figures, 475.248 of 935.527 citizens do not support the copy of Catalonian Statute. Probably some of them would approve it if they could, but the fact is that yesterday they do not vote in favor. Well, this obligates us to analyze the political effects of this fact. The main political effect is the lack of legitimacy. If 475.248 of 935.527 citizens des not support the copy of Catalonian Statute, we are in front of the potential political fact of lack of legitimacy. Capicci? And when a political order, institution or authority lacks legitimacy, the order, institution or authority not just weakens every day, but it is the object of citizens protests and discontent. Verstehen Sie? Today the citizens that did not vote for the “Sí” are socially and politically atomized, but some charismatic leadership or another big fraud like yestarday’s could activate collective action against the new Automaniam order, institutions or authorities. And this collective action could unchain a political crisis INSIDE Santa Catalunya de Bananilandia community. This is why the information regarding abstention is a key one: it constitutes an indicator (a poor one, it’s true, but at least one) of the level of legitimacy. I am really not interested in claiming the invalidity of yesterday’s survey. I am interesting in understanding the potential political scenarios emerged from the yesterday’s political behavior of Santa Catalunya de Bananilandia citizens.

Capicci now? The difference is very gross, don’t you think?

Because most of us is trying to understand the new scenario and not to claim for the invalidity of yesterday’s survey, we’re not analyzing if procedures of CDE, Koimité or Prefectura fulfils legal mandates. We all know every illegal act committed by this three-arms Cossa Nostra. We all know that the legal order does not allow to CDE to conduct and administrate an electoral process (this is why yesterday’s was a survey and not a referendum). We all know that. But we’re not interested in claiming for the invalidity of this act. We’re trying to understand the political scenario. Is it clear now? If not, I know you will tell me…

Best regards…

BTW, if you want to know another invalidity causes of yesterday’s survey, you’ll be welcome in my blog: http://web.mac.com/daniel.gimenez/iWeb/Ego_Ipse/Deconstructing/Deconstructing.html

11:15 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dear Bolivia Slave (of landowners), do you like the BDSM or what? Why do you always refer to me knowing I will ridiculize you in my answer? By now, I recommend to read the answer to Norman. Maybe reading that you'll finally understand why is important the information regarding abstentions. Even after read it you’re not able to understand it, just let me know and I will explain it to you with pears and apples.

Best regards…

11:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So what are the “self made men” of Santa Cruz going to do now?

Their high priest Terrazas (the Catholic Cardinal) “exercised his right to vote” on May 4th, nearly two weeks after asking the question that sank his standing in the eyes of the moral people of Bolivia, “Where are the Guarani slaves?”

Did the good priest see the pictures of the pre marked “SI” ballots in the news site Erbol?
Did the good priest see the “democratic” UJC saluting in fascist fashion as they claimed victory?

Franco

12:28 AM  
Anonymous Marty said...

Much credit to you for delivering a balanced view in these horrifically unbalanced times, whatever the others here may say.

4:00 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

Cheers to chasqui for the most cogent argument I've seen on this thread to date.

9:50 AM  
Blogger mcentellas said...

Chasqui wrote:

"I think the best way out is a new Constitutional Assembly. This time with a clear mandate: Distribution of Competencies among the Regional, Indigenous, and Municipal Autonomies. I am not sure if nine departments, 99 provinces or 35 nations are necessary, but a new CPE should only aim to provide a framework. Specific "estatutos" proposals should be submitted by each zone and approved by 2/3 of their peers."

Ivan Finot, myself, and a few others made exactly taht suggestion in April 2004 at a decentralization conference in La Paz hosted by ILDIS. Our plan never got any traction, though I still think it's the best option out there. A centralized unitary state just doesn't work in a multicultural, pluralinational context.

10:12 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

Ego, I do have some difficulty understanding your English. You tend to make a lot of errors when you try to use flamboyant language. (Hint, ridiculize” is not a word and we don’t “do political actions”). Write plainly instead of trying to impress us with your vocabulary. Honestly, I have to do the same thing in Spanish.

Now, I’ve already gone over the numbers enough. As they are coming out, more than 50% of the people voted which makes it a valid referendum (unless you take hippie’s line of thought). Of those that voted, it appears that 85% supported the proposal making it valid. I disagree that it’s valid, (again, based on hippie’s line of reasoning), but there you have it.

Now your argument is that 475,248 of 935,527 citizens do not support the Statutes of Autonomy. You simply can’t make that assumption though. As Miguel has argued, you are assuming that every single failure to vote should be counted as a vote against the Statutes. MASistas however, denied the votes of thousands by destroying polling booths. I could just as easily claim every vote denied by the MAS would have been in favor of Autonomy. That would be ridiculous though because no one knows how everyone would have voted. We don’t even have good numbers for abstention and denied votes yet.

So what can we say? We’ll use your 40% abstention numbers for now, or 60% having voted. 60% of 935,527 = 561,316. 85% voted SI. 85% of 561,316 = 477,118, or 51% of the total eligible voters. Now I know that when you use 82% SI instead of 85%, we end up with your result, and if pears were apples this might be true, but alas, pears are not apples.

So what is the political result? Well as near as I can tell, Morales was unable to conduct the referendum on the CPE on 4 May, he was unable to stop the referendum on Autonomy on 4 May, and he is unable to accept the results. Meanwhile, Costas has a bit more leverage than he did on 4 May to get some modifications to the illegal MAS CPE. To tell you the truth, I’m still watching to see what happens next.

10:42 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

My apologies for commenting on the language barrier. I appreciate that you make the effort to post in English as I rarely do the same in Spanish.

12:50 PM  
Blogger Mauricio said...

The national electoral commission declared that the autonomy referenda were illegal and should not go ahead.

The department of Santa Cruz declared that it would go ahead with its illegal and unconstitutional referendum on autonomy.
----------------------------------
In Santa Cruz, 15 families control half a million hectares of land. For the peasants working on these landholdings conditions have been the same for 200 years. At least 500 families live in serfdom, tied to the land and the landlord. More than 8,000 children, between the ages of 5 to 14, work on sugar plantations without receiving wages nor education and health services. ("Cambas")

Part of the proposed constitutional referendum is to limit the size of the landed estates to 5,000 or 10,000 hectares and to give 'autonomy' to the indigenous people.

Of course, the right wing in the East wants autonomy for itself, the autonomy to continue to exploit the natural resources and the people.

The right-wing in Santa Cruz and the East use racism and discrimination as a method to sustain their rule. This racism and discrimination against the indigenous people has been and continues to be a central feature in Bolivia.

-----------------------------------
Efforts by Bolivia’s land reform authorities to free 167 Guaraní families living in servitude in Alto Parapetí, Santa Cruz, have brought to light a phenomenon that had remained largely hidden and ignored until now by foreigners.

In the Chaco grasslands region of Santa Cruz, Tarija and Chuquisaca there are also another 1,050 families living in a kind of modern-day slavery.

A study carried out in 2007 by the German Development Service’s (DED) Programme to Foment Intercultural Dialogue in the Bolivian Chaco identified the municipalities in which the enslaved families live.

-----------------------------------

Whether you agree with the politics of MAS or not, it becomes more dificult to side with the opposition made up of several semi-fascist organizations!

2:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

After wading through the stupidiy, ignorance, insults, and of course the many "ridiculizations" (I'm submitting that one to the urban dictionary), I have a few thoughts.

What Sunday's vote means so far is that 1. Evo has lost some important ground as international media and gov't's have recognized the vote as a legitimate referendum and not an opinion poll; and 2. The Santa Cruz leadership may have won in terms of votes but that Santa Cruz may be just as polarized on this issue as the country is as a whole on Evo's gov't. Becoming "autonomous" is not synonymous with a peachy future for the Department and Costas & Co. have their work cut out for them if the plan is truly to satisfy the regional population's needs. Santa Cruz's leadership should be concerned that some of the abstention or "no" votes may be due to the population's general distrust of Bolivian politicians and that no real proposals have been made for the day after the referendum. As a business owner but not an oligarch, I'm wondering how much my taxes will go up, who I'll be paying them to and what they'll be spent on when autonomy is put into practice.

The referendum itself resolves nothing but it will hopefully force the gov't to listen to the oppostion, because the opposition is gaining support, particularly in international headlines. We all know that international support has been an important factor for Evo since his election and I don't think this can be counted on indefinitely after Sunday.

My prediction is that this political tug-of-war will continue until the end of Evo's mandate, with continued sporadic violence, increased inflation and a shrunken economy but some sensible political leadership will emerge to take the reigns in two years.

The present stalemate proves that Bolivia's political situation cannot be defined as "four families and the empire" vs. the pachamama. We can infer that Bolivia doesn't need European NGO's to help govern, nor is it helped by the U.S.'s lukewarm foreign policy on Latin American development. I would be remiss, however, if I didn't mention that continuing to antagonize the U.S. does nothing to help Bolivia.

Solutions need to come from within and there are many capable people in this country that can contribute.

Regarding the extremist factions, it was the MAS supporters who promoted violence on Sunday. The violence was unjustifed and unprovoked. There is no evidence to the contrary whatsoever. The violence on Sunday was not in defense of anything, it was just common street crime which deserves to be prosecuted but surely won't. Sunday's violence does nothing to further a political stance and is a detractor for Evo, whose support is in decline both inside the country and out. The anti-autonomy bunch would have been better off simply abstaining or voting no.

A humble suggestion to all posters: write in your native language. If you don't speak/write the English language as a native, you sound silly or worse. Likewise, anyone on this board who doesn't understand Spanish has no business being here.

Finally, a comment to the DC. I can't stand your politics or your apparent motives for being in Bolivia but the website is addictive and well-done.

2:15 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

Editorial from today's Washington Post:

Bolivia's Rift
President Evo Morales's attempt to impose Venezuelan-style socialism is literally splitting the country.


Bolivian President Evo Morales claims to be ruling his country on behalf of an indigenous majority whose rights have been denied for centuries by an evil "oligarchy." In fact, as a referendum in the country's largest province has demonstrated, Mr. Morales is pursuing a narrow and divisive agenda that, if continued, will split Bolivia along geographic as well as ethnic lines, and possibly trigger a civil war.

Though demographers disagree, a common estimate is that 55 percent of Bolivia's 9 million people are Quechua or Aymara Indians. This population is concentrated in the country's three highland provinces; in the six lowland provinces, mestizos, descendants of Europeans and local Indian groups, make up the majority. Ignoring this disparity, Mr. Morales, an Aymara and former coca farmer, is trying to impose a new political system on the country that greatly increases his own power and that privileges his own ethnic group at the expense of the rest of the country. Worse, Mr. Morales is an acolyte of Venezuela's Hugo Chávez and has adopted his potted and authoritarian version of socialism -- a sure recipe for economic catastrophe in what is already one of the hemisphere's poorest countries.

The referendum last Sunday in Santa Cruz province was nominally about whether the relatively prosperous region of 2.5 million people should acquire powers like those of U.S. states -- an elected legislature, the ability to tax, and management of its own land and police forces. While that would be a logical reform in a diverse country where power is overcentralized, Santa Cruz and as many as five other provinces in eastern Bolivia are mostly fighting to prevent Mr. Morales from imposing his own, far more radical agenda. This is embodied in a new constitution that the president rammed through a constituent assembly and Congress -- in both cases by forcibly excluding the opposition.

Though final results have not yet been reported, early returns showed that more than 60 percent of voters in Santa Cruz participated in the referendum and that 84 percent voted for the autonomy plan. Though the legality of the vote is questionable, the exercise demonstrated beyond doubt that opposition to Mr. Morales's program extends far beyond any "oligarchy." At least three more provincial referendums are expected in the coming weeks and are likely to produce similar results. If Bolivia is lucky, Mr. Morales will recognize that most of his country will never accept ethnocentric policies or Venezuelan-style autocracy, and he will begin to negotiate a compromise that allows more rights for provinces as well as for highland indigenous communities. If, goaded by Mr. Chávez, he presses ahead with his constitution, the result is likely to be bloodshed.

2:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Frank einstein:
That Washington Post was writen by Sanchez, a cronie of Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada. How can the Post hire sellout journalist like that? Easy, just like all the newspapers, radio and TV in Bolivia. Non facts at all, full propaganda sponsored by the mafia.
Franki: did you get your paycheck this month?

2:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BOLIVIA: Cuando la lucha es entre pobres
Por Franz Chávez, enviado especial

Joven encapuchado en el barrio del Plan Tres Mil.


SANTA CRUZ DE LA SIERRA, Bolivia, 6 may - La piel morena, el pelo lacio y rebelde, la pobreza y las calles de fina arena los unen, pero el estatuto autonómico cruceño marca una profunda división en el marginal barrio del Plan Tres Mil, habitado por mayorías expulsadas de las pauperizadas regiones del occidente boliviano.

A seis kilómetros de la gran urbe capital del oriental departamento de Santa Cruz, se expande un conjunto de viviendas y un modo de vida muy parecidos a los de otros departamentos, como Cochabamba o La Paz, en el centro y occidente de Bolivia, de los cuales son originarios la mayor parte de los habitantes de esta zona.

El domingo 4 --cuando Santa Cruz aprobó en las urnas un referendo sobre su autonomía de espaldas al gobierno nacional-- será recordado como el día en que la diferencia de ideas terminó fracturando a las empobrecidas familias migrantes en la plaza principal del barrio, denominada la rotonda, circundada por calles de tierra de profundos baches y maleza rebelde.

Santa Cruz, el departamento más rico de Bolivia, lidera un movimiento autonomista que ha arrastrado a seis de las nueve regiones del país, considerado separatista e inconstitucional por el gobierno nacional, encabezado por el indígena izquierdista Evo Morales.

"Aquí estamos peleando por la unidad del país. Vengan compañeros, organicémonos para enfrentar a la Unión Juvenil Cruceñista que trata de atacarnos", se escuchaba en los altoparlantes instalados en la plaza, junto a una hoguera donde se habían incinerado papeletas y urnas sustraídas de dos escuelas habilitadas como centros de votación.

Rostros de furia, banderas bolivianas en alto, frente a unas pocas cruceñas, palos y piedras y algunos pasamontañas cubriendo jóvenes identidades, todos gritando consignas racistas, crearon un ambiente hostil de permanente emergencia ante la posible llegada de grupos de choque de la Unión Juvenil Cruceñista, favorable al autonomismo.

"Hemos conseguido parar la votación en San Julián y Yapacaní, debe seguir la lucha", se escucha en los altavoces y una multitud grita en señal de júbilo, mientras otras personas se les unen con palos y banderas rojas con símbolos del Partido Comunista.

El ambiente invadido por el humo, el aroma de las comidas cocinadas al aire libre, en un cuadro de urbanismo desordenado, de construcciones precarias de madera y frágiles chapas metálicas, es el sitio para la batalla entre opositores y defensores de la autonomía impulsada por grupos de acaudalados empresarios, terratenientes y agroindustriales.

Por un momento, la tensión crece, los periodistas toman recaudos para protegerse de un probable intercambio de piedras entre bandos, mientras un hombre sonriente alivia el miedo con caramelos de chocolate y leche, repartidos democráticamente entre combatientes y curiosos.

Otro activista toma el micrófono y enciende más los ánimos: "Patria o muerte", exclama y la respuesta no se deja esperar: "¡Venceremos...!" y luego viene el estribillo de las viejas luchas sociales: "El pueblo unido, jamás será vencido... Pueblo que escuchas, únete a la lucha..."

La actividad económica para los habitantes del barrio del Plan Tres Mil es de supervivencia. La mayoría se dedican al comercio, medio de vida característico de los pueblos aymaras de los Andes y del altiplano, expertos en la intermediación de mercadería.

Otros venden su fuerza de trabajo como estibadores, obreros de la construcción, especialistas en algún oficio manual o conductores de vehículos de servicio público.

La economía aquí es muy diferente a la del centro de Santa Cruz de la Sierra. Por unos nueve centavos de dólar se alivia la sed con un helado o un vaso de chicha, bebida refrescante elaborada con maíz. Los precios se multiplican hasta por tres en la moderna capital cruceña.

Pero estos rasgos de pobreza compartidos cotidianamente no han sido suficientes para sellar el pacto social, sólo contenido en discursos políticos, pero lejanos al rencor y los signos evidentes de racismo.

Mientras los bandos se aproximan para enfrentarse y los policías se ubican en medio para impedir el choque fotografiado y grabado sin cesar por periodistas nacionales y extranjeros, los gritos surgen duros y envenenados.

"...Que pase esa colla de mierda... que aquí le vamos a sacar las tripas (vísceras)...", grita una joven y morena mujer cruceña autonomista, en respuesta a los insultos de los originarios del occidente, región que en el período precolombino conformaba el Kollasuyo. "Viva la autonomía carajo", exclama un hombre con acento oriental mientras desde el otro lado se escucha: "Fascistas, vendidos a la oligarquía, racistas..."

"Vayan a mascar coca a su país, fuera de aquí", grita con furia una mujer. "Evo vendido, gobierno vendido". "Fuera collas de mierda", se escucha entre carreras para buscar refugio y el apresto de los policías para usar proyectiles de gases.

Los petardos estallan sin cesar, los gritos y silbidos recrean un cuadro de guerra. "Ahora es cuando, compañeros, si son bolivianos únanse carajo", exhorta con vehemencia un hombre para obtener la adhesión de temerosos habitantes que tienen en los rostros una mezcla de miedo y sonrisas.

El maestro Martín Huayllani, nacido en las mineras tierras de Potosí, en el extremo sudoccidental, corre alentando a los manifestantes contrarios a la autonomía. Llega hasta la cabeza de la marcha, baja hasta la última línea, coordina y da órdenes para conformar el grupo que intenta la toma del Colegio Boliviano Alemán, donde algunas personas tratan de instalar las mesas de votación.

Mientras se organiza el grupo de asalto, otros jóvenes, alineados con la Unión Juvenil Cruceñista, toman posiciones casi al estilo militar, se apostan en las esquinas y la mayoría llevan palos de madera de unos 40 centímetros, perfectamente pulidas y salidas de la misma maestranza.

Con 54 años a cuestas, Huayllani afirma que no permitirá la división de Bolivia y asegura que su lucha es por el futuro de sus hijos.

Unos metros más allá, Juan Blanco, un hombre con un viejo abrigo y pelo desordenado acompañado de una mujer, se acerca agresivamente a este periodista de IPS y busca nuestra identificación, mientras asegura que el canal de televisión del gobierno tergiversa los hechos.

Esta es apenas una pequeña muestra de agresividad. Otros periodistas se llevaron la peor parte en varios incidentes de la jornada del referendo cruceño, pues recibieron golpes y pedradas o perdieron cámaras fotográficas, tanto por la acción de autonomistas como de militantes oficialistas.

Blanco mira con desprecio a una pareja de humildes migrantes de la zona del valle central y dice: "Yo quiero votar por el Sí, porque no comparto con la gente de ojotas y de polleras que ha venido a molestar". Minutos después, la mujer que lo acompaña confiesa que Blanco es de origen paceño, un colla más en el barrio del Plan Tres Mil.(FIN/2008)

3:01 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

There is no one named "Sanchez" on the editorial board of the Washington Post.

Who is this "Sanchez", anyway? Does he have a first name? Could it be Generalissimo Dirty Sanchez, perhaps?

3:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Marcela Sanchez's e-mail address is desdewash@washpost.com.

She may explain to you why she is so biased against progressive governments in latin america. fat, nice paycheck among the benefits. She should be writing for the Washington Times the moonie paper of the far right instead, but the Washington Post has their interests too. Afterall don't they supported the invasions to latin america, as well as crooks as Banzer, Goni Sanches, tutopluto?

4:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

heh, heh. dirty sanchez

8:56 PM  
Blogger Ego Ipse said...

My dearest Norman… Please forgive the long time I took for replying. I was participating in real and substantial discussions. There were no options: the less important ones should wait. So, I came back here to reply the last pending discussion: this one. Before that, however, let me ask you… are you the same Norman that months ago, in Andres Pucci’s blog, attempted to demonstrate unsuccessfully that CPE approval process was illegal? If it so, I understand a lot of things…

Well, regarding my “flamboyant” language there’s no much to say. I’m not an English native-speaking, so I’m doing my best for you to understand. Nevertheless, let me comment your points:

a) The On Line dictionary (http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/ridiculize) defines “ridiculize” as synonymous of “ridicules”. And in this kind of cases, I rather prefer to believe in dictionaries like On Line Dictionary better than…. What was your name? Ohh yeah, I remember: Norman. I rather prefer to believe in those dictionaries better than believe in one of the millions of Normans of the world… In any case, I used that world in my reply to Bolivia slave (of landowners). How could that word affect the points I presented to you?

b) If you do not “…do political actions…”, may be you should. Thus you could understand better the plain and gross differences between “political analysis”, “legal analysis”, and “political actions” :-p

c) Would two things that you consider grammatically incorrect affect an entire and very simply exposition? Are you sure? If this is the case, maybe the obstacle is not in my “flamboyant” language, but in the understanding process…

The sad issue, my dear Norman, is that it is evident, very evident that effectively you did not understand my points. And there is no complexity in them. Let me sumarize them again:

1. Politically, It doesn’t matter if the referendum is legally valid (which is not). Nowadays, there is no mean to enforce the fulfillment of the law and Constitution in Santa Cruz. So, politically it really doesn’t matter if the referendum was or wasn’t illegal (which was). The actual problem is not legal. It’s political. Are you able to understand the difference between both? If you are able, why do you insist with your legal argument?

2. My argument never was that 475,248 of 935,527 citizens do not support the estatruchos. My argument is that 458,176 (according to definitive and official figures) did not vote for “Sí”. I never said that 458,176 citizens disagree with the estatrucho (in fact, I said the contrary: “…Probably some of them would approve it if they could, but the fact is that yesterday they do not vote in favor…”). I just said that there is a political fact: 458,176 citizens did not vote for the “Sí”. I never said that they disagree with the estatrucho. Capicci? Isn’t it very gross the difference? 458,176 allows and gives foundation to the political claiming of lack of legitimacy, which really occurred in government reaction. And in political analysis, we try to understand this kind of actions and reactions. Capicci?

3. Probably you know that President promulgated yesterday the “Referendum revocatorio” law. The political fact of 458,176 citizens not voting for the Sí acquires political relevance in this new political scenario (too much “political”? well, maybe trough repetition you finally understand that the conflict is political, not legal). This is why we need to analyze the fact. And that was all my point. In the political scenario generated by the referendum, there is an important “legitimacy” issue (please take note to avoid me the work of explaining you something trivial again: “legitimacy” is not related to “legality”). And because of this evident legitimacy issue the President promulgated the law without any modification or veto. The existence of 458,176 that did not vote for the “Sí” gave him an important political resource, which could make the revocation option very viable in Santa Cruz. The political fact of the abstention in Santa Cruz allows us to understand the political fact of the confidence in the promulgation of “Referendum revocatorio” law. Without the legitimacy issue involving the main lead role of “media luna’s” political project (Santa Cruz), probably we would not have the law today. Do you understand now why the 458,176 citizens are politically (although not legally) relevant? Do you understand why they are politically relevant? Do you understand my simple, very simple point now? You read that pears are apples when you were told that there are pears and apples.

Are you still watching? Please watch until 10th august. A political shift in the Departamentos side will occur.

Regards

1:41 PM  
Anonymous aocgold said...

[url=http://buy-aoc-gold.rgtrcredit.com/][color=#800080][b]Age Of Conan Gold [/b][/color][/url][url=http://www.aocsale.com/][color=#800080][b]Age Of Conan Gold [/b][/color][/url][url=http://www.buy-cheap-aoc-gold.com/][color=#800080][b]Age Of Conan Gold[/b][/color][/url][url=http://www.buy-cheap-aoc-gold.com/][color=#800080][b]buy age of conan gold [/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://www.aocsale.com/][color=#800080][b]buy age of conan gold[/b][/color][/url][url=http://buy-aoc-gold.rgtrcredit.com/][color=#800080][b]buy age of conan gold [/b][/color][/url][url=http://www.buyfastgold.com/][color=#800080][b]aoc gold [/b][/color][/url][url=http://buy-aoc-gold.hellgate-pd.com/][color=#800080][b]aoc gold [/b][/color][/url][url=http://www.buyfastgold.com/][color=#800080][b]aoc gold[/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://buy-aoc-gold.hellgate-pd.com/][color=#800080][b] buy aoc gold [/b][/color][/url][url=http://www.buyfastgold.com/][color=#800080][b] buy aoc gold[/b][/color][/url]


http://www.buyfastgold.com

http://www.buy-cheap-aoc-gold.com

http://www.aocsale.com

http://buy-aoc-gold.hellgate-pd.com

http://buy-aoc-gold.rgtrcredit.com



Age Of Conan Gold     Age Of Conan Gold       Age Of Conan Gold     buy age of conan gold  
buy age of conan gold   buy age of conan gold          aoc gold             aoc gold             aoc gold
 buy aoc gold      buy aoc gold

2:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fourth wow power leveling latest game in wow power leveling Warcraft series is ‘wow power leveling’. Also known as wow power leveling, it represents a wow power leveling multiplayer online wow power leveling game, the best of wow power leveling kind. Initially, it was wow gold it be released in 2001, but wow powerleveling was delayed wow powerleveling 2004, thus wow powerleveling the 10 years ofwow powerleveling franchise of thiswow gold series. The world of warcraft power leveling was not world of warcraft power levelingfulfilling, because wow power levelproblems with wow power level server’s stability power leveling wow performance occurred, but power leveling wow game still power leveling wow a financial success powerleveling wow the most powerleveling wow game of its kind. The number cheap wow power leveling users that play Maple Story mesos, exceeds 8.5 MapleStory mesos, worldwide.As a form ms mesos,recognition for mesos,outstanding popularity, the game SilkRoad Gold, received aSRO Gold, of awards. Now the question eq2 plat, why is eq2 gold, game eq2 Platinum, popular? For anyoneEverQuest 2 Platinum, played the previous EverQuest 2 gold, and EverQuest 2 plat, already initiated lotro gold, the mysterious world lotr gold, the breathtaking Lord of the Rings online Gold, this Rolex Replica nothing but an Replica Rolex adventure that continues the story of ‘Warcraft III: Frozen Throne’, four years after conclusion, in the world of Azeroth. The game is online role-playing, the previous versions being online and offline strategy games. The major thrills and unique features are present as in every Blizzard game.

9:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow gold wow gold cheap wow gold cheap wow gold buy wow gold buy wow gold world of warcraft gold world of warcraft gold cheapest wow gold cheap world of warcraft gold buy world of warcraft gold fast wow gold fast wow gold buy cheap wow gold cheapest world of warcraft gold wow gold for sale gold for wow sell wow gold aoc gold aoc gold cheap aoc gold cheap aoc gold buy aoc gold buy aoc gold ffxi gil ffxi gil buy ffxi gil buy ffxi gil cheap ffxi gil cheap ffxi gil

wow power leveling wow powerleveling wow power leveling wow powerleveling power leveling powerleveling world of warcraft power leveling world of warcraft powerleveling world of warcraft power leveling world of warcraft powerleveling wow power level wow power level wow powerlevel wow powerlevel wow leveling wow leveling power leveling ffxi power leveling aoc power leveling rs power leveling

5:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

good site: ;wow gold site: ;cheap wow gold site: ;cheapest wow gold site:

10:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
托盘
钢托盘
堆垛架
钢制料箱
物流台车
手推车
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
托盘
钢托盘
堆垛架
巧固架
钢制料箱
物流台车
载物台车
手推车
手推车
轻型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
次重型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
托盘式货架
贯通式货架
通廊式货架
阁楼货架
钢平台
精品货架
展示货架
悬臂式货架
抽屉式货架
模具货架
辊轮式货架
流利式货架
移动式货架
密集架
网片
隔离网
护栏
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
钢托盘
钢制托盘
置物柜
置物架
挂板架
物料整理架
单挂钩
直挂钩
螺丝刀架
扳手架
工作台
工作桌
线棒货架
输送辊道
辊道输送机
不锈钢制品
不锈钢推车
仓储笼
钢托盘
塑料托盘
钢制料箱
物流台车
堆垛架
静音手推车
手动液压托盘搬运车
登高车
手动堆高车
平台车
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
纸托盘
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
钢制料箱
工具柜
工作台
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓库货架
中量A型货架
仓储货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
托盘
塑料托盘
钢制托盘
纸托盘
仓储笼
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
蝴蝶笼
储物笼
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
纸托盘
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
钢制料箱
工具柜
工作台
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓库货架
中量A型货架
仓储货架
中量B型货架
库房货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
栈板
塑料托盘
塑料栈板
纸托盘
栈板
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
蝴蝶笼
储物笼
钢制料箱
钢质周转箱
网格式料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
托盘搬运车
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
轻型货架
中型货架
搁板式货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
托盘货架
托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
托盘
钢托盘
塑料托盘
钢制托盘
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
手推车
静音手推车
铁板手推车
物料架
整理架
挂板架
钢制料箱
钢制周转箱
网格式料箱
料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
电动托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
半电动堆高车
手动叉车
塑料周转箱
物流箱
塑料化工桶
塑料卡板箱
工具柜
上海工具柜
南京工具柜
抽屉柜
工作台
工作桌
南京工作台
上海工作台
刀具车
刀具柜
刀具架
刀具座
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
纸托盘
折叠式仓储笼
仓库笼
钢制料箱
工具柜
工作台
手动液压托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
仓库货架
中量A型货架
仓储货架
中量B型货架
库房货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
栈板
塑料托盘
塑料栈板
纸托盘
栈板
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
蝴蝶笼
储物笼
钢制料箱
钢质周转箱
网格式料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
托盘搬运车
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓储笼
仓库笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
折叠仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼

仓储笼
仓储笼

仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
托盘
托盘
托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
塑料托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
铁托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
托盘
钢托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘
托盘
钢托盘
铁托盘
钢制托盘
塑料托盘

托盘
托盘

托盘
钢托盘
钢制托盘
托盘
塑料托盘


货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司

货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司

货架
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
货架

货架
轻量型货架
角钢货架
货架
中量型货架
次重型货架
货位式货架
重量型货架
横梁式货架
仓储货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
仓储货架
悬臂式货架
仓储货架
贯通式货架
通廊式货架
驶入式货架
仓库货架
库房货架
抽屉式货架
模具货架
仓库货架
库房货架
汽车4S店货架
汽配库货架
货架厂
货架公司
南京货架
上海货架
无锡货架
苏州货架
货架厂
货架公司
北京货架
天津货架
沈阳货架
大连货架
货架厂
货架公司
广州货架
深圳货架
宁波货架
杭州货架

南京货架
货架公司
货架厂
仓库货架
仓储货架
货架
货架

11:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

中秋節快樂!

4:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

情趣用品,情趣,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣精品,情趣用品,情趣,AIO交友愛情館,情人歡愉用品,美女視訊,情色交友,情人用品性哥,視訊交友,辣妹視訊,美女交友,性愛,嘟嘟成人網,按摩棒,震動按摩棒,微調按摩棒,情趣按摩棒,逼真按摩棒,G點,跳蛋,
跳蛋,跳蛋,性感內衣,飛機杯,充氣娃娃,情趣娃娃,角色扮演,性感睡衣,後庭區,SM,潤滑液,情趣禮物,威而柔,香水,精油,芳香精油,自慰,自慰套,性感吊帶襪,情趣用品加盟,情人歡愉用品,跳蛋情人娜娜,情趣用品,情人節禮物,情人節,吊帶襪,辣妹視訊,美女交友,情色交友,成人交友,視訊聊天室,美女視訊,視訊美女,情色視訊,免費視訊聊天,視訊交友,視訊聊天,AIO交友愛情館,嘟嘟成人網,成人貼圖,成人網站

7:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

warhammer gold warhammer money warhammer accounts tibia money tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts buy runescape accounts runescape money runescape gold runescape gp runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling cheap rs2 powerleveling runescape equipment buy rs equipment runescape runes cheap rs2 runes runescape logs cheap rs2 logs runescape items buy runescape items runescape quest point rs2 quest point cheap runescape questpoint runescape gold runescape items runescape power leveling runescape money runescape gold buy runescape gold buy runescape money runescape items runescape accounts runescape gp runescape accounts runescape money runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling tibia gold dofus kamas buy dofus kamas wow power leveling wow powerleveling runescape questpoint rs2 questpoint Warcraft PowerLeveling Warcraft Power Leveling World of Warcraft PowerLeveling World of Warcraft Power Leveling Hellgate money Hellgate gold buy runescape logs buy rs2 items cheap runescape items Hellgate London gold Guild Wars Gold buy Guild Wars Gold runescape items rs2 accounts cheap rs2 equipments lotro gold buy lotro gold buy runescape money buy runescape gold buy runescape runes lotro gold buy lotro gold runescape money runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling eve isk eve online isk buy runescape power leveling rs2 power leveling tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts Fiesta Silver Fiesta Gold Scions of Fate Gold Hellgate Palladium Hellgate London Palladium SOF Gold Age Of Conan Gold AOC Gold ArchLord gold tibia money tibia gold runescape accounts runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling buy ArchLord gold DDO Plat Dungeons and Dragons Online Plat

4:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wholesale jewelry
costume jewelry
handmade jewelry
pearl jewelry
jewelry wholesale
crystal jewelry
Semiprecious jewelry
turquoise jewelry
coral jewelry
shell jewelry
swarovski crystal jewelry
wholesale pearl
wholesale semi-precious jewelry
wholesale coral
wholesale turquoise
wholesale shell

10:25 PM  

Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home