Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Bolivian Racism Runs Amok in Sucre

Readers:

Racism is a disease that usually hides in dark corners. In most cultures the shame of racism makes denial its common companion, the light of day is its usual enemy. But not in Sucre. Not this weekend. The rampant anti-indigenous racism known well by anyone who has lived in this culture was released full throttle and in public on Saturday in the streets of the nation's judicial capital. Indigenous men were rounded up and abused by racist thugs for the crime of their ethnicity and desire to witness a public appearance by their country's first indigenous President.

Below is a report by The Democracy Center's staff in Bolivia. The politicians who have fed this thugery for their own purposes will be quick to disassociate themselves from it now, but those denials too are disingenuous. This is the fruit of the same attitudes expressed in the dark corners of political offices and around private dinner tables for many years.

This is the unvarnished face of Bolivian racism, and it is neither an isolated incident nor an accident of the moment. It is a political tactic that stains a nation.

Jim Shultz



Racism Run Amok

On Saturday May 24th President Evo Morales was scheduled to visit the city of Sucre on the commemoration of the 199th anniversary of Latin America’s first steps of independence from Spain, General Sucre's "first shout of liberty (May 25, 1809)." The President planned on delivering ambulances for Chuquisaca’s rural communities and to announce development projects for the region, all actions typical of what Presidents do here on such dates. The events were to take place in the “Patriotic” Stadium, surrounded by and under the protection of indigenous people from different parts of the province.

However, the night before the event, organized groups antagonistic to Morales began to provoke disturbances around the stadium and stoned a house where a fundraising dinner was taking place for a MAS candidate for Governor, Walter Valda.

Then on Saturday, the day of the anniversary, the anti-Morales violence went into racist overdrive. Mobs armed with sticks and dynamites confronted the police and military. The government retreated the public's armed forces, cancelled all scheduled parades (of the military and police), and President Morales’ visit.

With the police and military presence gone, the indigenous peasants who had come to see the President were left face-to-face with armed civilians from urban Sucre, among them university students of the public University of San Francisco Xavier. More than two dozen indigenous peasants were beaten and captured, their few possessions were taken away and they were forced to walk for three miles and then kneel shirtless in front of Sucre’s House of Liberty. Sucre mobs humiliated their indigenous captives in a repeat of a ritual from the most brutal pages of colonialism. Under threat of violence, and half naked in a public square the captives were forced to apologize for the offense of coming to the city to receive President Morales. "Llamas, ask forgiveness," the mob ordered. Among the captives was the mayor of the rural town of Mojocoya.

Video footage of the abuse can be seen here.

Journalists in Sucre who bore witness to the racism unleashed also became targets. Yesterday, Red Erbol, a prominent association of radios and various institutions of communication denounced the attack of Red Erbol affiliated journalist María Elena Paco Durán of ACLO. Ms. Durán was attacked and insulted, prevented from carrying out her work as a reporter. According to Ms. Durán, at one point, the aggressors threatened to drench her with alcohol and set her on fire.

The Campesino Federation of Chuquisaca demanded the resignation of Jaime Barrón, Vice-Chancellor of the University, and of the President of Sucre's Interinstitutional Committee, a civic group that has been a leading force in anti-Morales protests. Threatening to block roads and close off valves of gas pipelines (if Barrón didn't resign), the Campesino Federation accused Barrón of promoting violence and racism.

Leaders of the Inter-institutional Committee, though denying any role in the violence inflicted upon the campesinos, have pleaded forgiveness for the degrading act committed in front of the House of Liberty.

Government Minister Alfredo Rada accused the Inter-institutional Committee for these acts and declared the day as a “Day of National Shame.”

Yesterday in Sucre was not a usual Sunday, a time of family, church-going, and tranquility. Instead, Sucre smelled of the aftermath of an outrageous and shameful act.

The Capital of Bolivian Racism

What was once known as the white city for its elegant architecture, Sucre is now something different. Since the beginning of the Constituent Assembly, when civic leaders held the process hostage to force their demands that it be named the nation's capital, Sucre has been showing the world a face few knew before, one where indigenous and campesinos are thrown out of the public university and spit on in public, one where at the moment there is fear of racial conflicts and violent outbreaks. Sucre is now the capital of Bolivian racism.

The Bolivian government, through Sacha Llorenti, Vice-minister of Coordination with Social Movements, asked the Catholic and Methodist Church to start a campaign against racism, intolerance, and discrimination in Sucre.

“It can’t be that almost 200 years into the founding of Bolivia we are still tolerating this kind of acts,” declared Llorenti. “Why are people racist? Why does one person think s/he is superior just because of his skin color, last name, or the language s/he speaks? This is nothing other than an inferiority complex.”

President Morales spoke yesterday from the department of Pando, urging university students to regain their ethics, morals, and respect for the indigenous, peasant, and impoverished population.

“What kind of university education do we have...it is important to improve those ethics, those morals of a respectful youth and his/her solidarity, so that s/he will always be conscious of social problems.”

Sucre, where supposedly liberty was born, this past Saturday became a prison for the indigenous and peasantry. Reminding us of the oppression and racism during the colonial times, once again, the indigenous have been given ample reason to come to the judicial capital.


Written by: Aldo Orellana and Yi-Ching Hwang

63 Comments:

Blogger Norman said...

I'm sure it would have come out later in the comments, but it would have been nice if Jim, Aldo, and Yi-Ching had bothered to comment that in the photo, the folks standing around the shirtless campesinos are also of indigenous descent. In fact, I couldn't find a single euro face. The campesinos kneeling are not so much shirtless as poncho-less. Their red ponchos were taken away away and burned (see the foreground). I'm not denying racism, but your absolute insistence in ignoring the political aspect and the para-military nature of the Poncho Rojos marching into Sucre severley weakens your argument... again. Usually Jim is better about covering both sides. When he leaves it to Aldo and Yi-Ching though...

8:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, yes, racism. Leftie's favorite word to rev up outrage, indignation, and demands for righteous justice...when it fits their ideology and agenda.

Unfortunately, such emotions also cloud objectivity and capacity of calm analysis, well demonstrated by DC's latest article.

After reading the latest DC article screaming "Racism! Racism!" I couldn't find one instance where Croat palefaces or skin tones lighter than Jojoga Pantone were involved in what happened in Sucre.

It's amazing how such a truly racist government like Evo "Oppressed for 500 Years" Morales has polarized the country and allowed the rule of law to be denigrated.

Morales has reaped what he has sowed, and it ain't coca this time.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

8:46 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

the folks standing around the shirtless campesinos are also of indigenous descent.

Actually the folks standing around the "captive campesinos" look more indigenous than the latter.

9:21 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

One thing that intrigues me is that the photo is heavily biased toward yellow, much like a very old picture. I wonder what a more neutral photo would look like.

9:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Evo Morales is the ONLY guilty party...ok may be Alvaro Garcia Linera might have a hand on it as well as School of the America's favority Alumn Quintanilla. But the root cause for this violence is Evo and his nihilistic thrist for violence.

From mercilessly blocking roads early in his career. Where cocaleros were coerced to participate, where thousands of innocent people languished without food, shelter or medical care. Who can forget the hundreds of Bolivian entrepeneurs that he forced into bankruptcy with his raids into their farmland and his conveniently blocking roads during harvest season. Let us not forget the dozen of indigenous (that should make them sound more human to the lefties) army recruits brutally tortured and murdered at Evo's hand.

Evo took this culture of violence to a whole new level as President. Not only did he continually gave speeches saying that the indigenous are a superior race, capable of living 700yrs, incapable of greed, corruption, or any desire. He continually called upon for the massacre of whitey, he applauded the Poncho Rojos when they slit the throaths of dogs, he offered them sponsorship when they said they were going to go to the media luna and kill whitey.

Why should it surprise us that Sucre will react this way? There are no Gandhi's in Bolivia, only black panthers...they will not turn the other cheek, hold hands, and sing we shall overcome...they instead will arm and defend the right to self defense. I don't blame them. If there is anything that Evo has shown in the past two years is that he has an infinite capacity for hate, revanchisno, and could care less how many are slaugther for a pat in the back from Casto. As much as I hate (and suffered) racism, if there's a paramilitary, racist, group a group that routinely sends emails (I'm sure you have seen those, not here, but elsewhere) saying that these time they will collect our first borns and slit their throats, what do you think my reaction would be?

10:01 AM  
Blogger bowsie said...

This post has been removed by the author.

10:53 AM  
Blogger bowsie said...

"The folks standing around the shirtless campesinos are also of indigenous descent. In fact, I couldn't find a single euro face."

A large majority of the so called "white" community are actually of mestizo descent and many white upper class families will have a few members that look distinctly indigenous. Except for the Croats that get so much publicity here, the vast majority of rich upper class "white" bolivians have a clear mestizo look.

Racism in Bolivia is complex and at times contradictory.

I have no secondary source for this article so I'm not going to comment on the accuracy of it only to say that I find it sad that I am the first poster to express sympathy for the people at the center of this dreadful scene. This kind of discrimination, whatever form it is, is truly heartbreaking in this day and age.

P.S: Is there a secondary source hanging around my Spanish is ropey and I can't find an English language confirmation anywhere. Can anyone help?

10:57 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

I'm not sure about a secondary English source of news on the subject. There are of course the usual blogs ( Pronto* for example). You could try a Google News search on "Bolivia" and "Sucre" for a Cuban flavor. One site I visited to see if I could glean anything was www.videobolivia.com where you can view clips from the news.

I'm sorry I don't feel a great deal of compassion for the Poncho Rojos; that's a character flaw of mine I'm working on.

11:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hatred, from the brained washed (if they have any brains) by the newspapers, TV and the money pouring by the millions from Disneyland. That is the root which is provoking all these dark skinned thugs (civicos) to deny their roots. Sold out for a few dollars.

Pay a criminal (white, red or yellow, brown), give them drugs and alcohol and you will see what is happening in Sucre and Santa Cruz.

It is a shame how the anons and others in this web page justify the attrocities from the camba idiots, mercenaries paid by we know well who.

Sucrenses? tarijenos, cambas, pacenos? gusanos ? It does not matter, the money from Goni poni Sanchez desposada, Reyes Villain, Tuto/puto, Maricon vick, via the crooks who have seven months in the casa blanca are instigating all these ethnic hatred to take over the democratically elected president by huge majority two years ago. Why? Because he is a native American dark skinned campesino who is doing good for the oppressed people of Bolivia. Naturally the mafia wants to destroy him and put puppets semi idiots like Tuto, Reyes Villa or Costas.

These imbeciles are villains so called “Christians” are not decent people. If God would be wearing poncho he would suffer the same fate as the campesinos in Bolivia.

God, please forgive these right wings zealots who have no sense of humanity, they are paid animals who justify anything as long as their pay check from g..usa..noAID is on time.
Shame on you right wing zealots, justice will prevail and your daughters, sons will pay for what you do. It is a fact of life, just check it out of what happens to the crooks of the world.

11:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just attempted to read the chap on top of me (not literally, thank be to the Ekeko).

That was my first mistake.

I have handy one of those old "Star Wars" magazines where there's a fascinating conversation between huge Bigfoot Chewbacca and his tribe. Their odd grunts are easier to read understand than what anon 11:12 attempted to articulate.

My second mistake is that I have no "Calmadolcito" nearby. Off to the pharmacy it is.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

11:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A interesting (but not satisfactory) explanation was put by an anon comentator on the sucreando blog.

They did not do that to them because they were indigenous, but rather because they were ponchos rojos, because they came not as their fellow Bolivians, but because they came as MASisitas trying to impose onto them.

Sucrenses are still pissed off that Evo has not done anything about the deaths that happened there a couple of months ago. They did not want him using their holiday to further his political aims, specially when he refuses to investigate the deaths for which the hostages yesterday apologized for.

12:12 PM  
Blogger E.L. said...

Context: Norman is in Bolivia to exploit cheap labor like the good closeted Republican he is. That is the ideology who believes their mantras "remember 9/11" or "otherwise the terrorists will win" justify their: domestic espionage; US Constitution violations; sadistic torturing, wholesale death of civilians termed "collateral damage" and transfering 6 trillion dollars to their financiers from primarily middle class and lower class taxpayers by way of no bid contracts re: Iraq and Hurricane Katrina. Their mantras also cover up their culture of corruption, pedophilia and/or closeted homosexuality practiced by Republican "spiritual adviser to President Bush" (Haggert) or Republican political leaders (too many to list just one).

Norman's ideology is like the neo-nazis of the UCJ who violently beat a humble, poor 54 y.o. man because he was wearing a slightly blue colored shirt, as seen in this video: http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=WliXZExcnRQ&feature=related

In touch with his inner Gitmo/"Abu Ghraib" marine, Norman reveals he's cool with the humble peasants above being humiliated and violently beaten after being round up because they were "indios", as all news reports say. No credible media claims they were rounded up because they were "Ponchos Rojos" troops, a motley group that march on occasion with a couple of relic mausers, but mostly with sticks.

Why does Norman reveal the evil in his heart now, after hiding his inner Bushie for so long? Answer: Because the perpetrators of the above heinous acts cunningly placed a prop (one red poncho not a pile of red ponchos or mausers) in the frame thus associating their victims with an Andean political group. Norman even claims the victims are only "poncho-less" despite that they can be seen in the video as being nearly naked.

Guantanamo Norman shows its cool to be inhuman toward your fellow humans on the basis of ideology, if they are not right wing Republicans like he.

We progressives believe otherwise. Particularly if our faith in Christ leads us to believe that we shall be held accountable by God and faith without works is dead.

12:38 PM  
Blogger bowsie said...

Norman said: I'm not sure about a secondary English source of news on the subject. There are of course the usual blogs ( Pronto* for example). You could try a Google News search on "Bolivia" and "Sucre" for a Cuban flavor. One site I visited to see if I could glean anything was www.videobolivia.com where you can view clips from the news.

After that heroic informational effort you will forever be known to me as "Stormin' Norman".

12:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding those surprised that the racists in Sucre were of mixed race. Anyone expecting that white faces at the wheel of Ford Expeditions would do their own handiwork are not familiar with the finer arts of Bolivian racism.

12:43 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

E.L. demonstrates his "tolerance" by calling his opponents "homosexuals".

12:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I found this article interesting. Divide and conquer.

Qué bien Presidente Morales, porque como buen jefe usted da el ejemplo, es el primero en provocar, en ofender, en maltratar, en hacer lo necesario para dividir, pero como es lógico y natural no está en primera linea en la lucha callejera, ni da ni recibe los golpes que sus hermanos campesinos o los soldados rasos lo hacen a su nombre. En su visión elemental de la lucha ha recurrido a la máxima de que hay que dividir para reinar, y usted qué bien está cumpliendo con este infame cometido.

12:53 PM  
Anonymous Aymara de Bolivia said...

Pienso que para sacar una conclusión sobre lo sucedido en Sucre el pasado Sábado - a lo que se que se suma lo que ocurre constantemente en Santa Cruz, y también lo que a ocurrido en Cochabamba el 11 de Enero del 2007 en donde jóvenes de la ciudad se divirtieron golpeando campesinos hasta matarlos – no se debe mirar solamente la situación coyuntural, porque lo ocurrido en Sucre tiene pues una raíz histórica.

En la fotografía evidentemente no hay personas europeas, por el contrario algunas personas que están mirando no se diferencian de los que están arrodillados. Entonces porque esta gente, de abuelos innegablemente indígenas discriminan a los campesinos? Es porque Bolivia, si bien se libró de una colonización física, todavía es víctima de una colonización mental. La lucha en Bolivia por buscar ciertos cambios en materia económica, política y social no esta separada por una lucha hacia la DESCOLONIZACIÓN MENTAL de nuestra gente, y esta lucha justamente es la que más va a costar y lo que más tiempo va a tomar.

El 11 de Enero en Cochabamba no fue una pelea entre blancos e indígenas. Porque incluso se podía ver que los que estaban en primera fila - junto con jovenzuelos blancos y de alta sociedad- listos para golpear campesinos eran de procedencia indígena claramente, la gran mayoría en Bolivia lo somos. El problema en Bolivia es que hay una crisis de identidad y es lo que debemos ahondar para que las personas que tienen un pensamiento neo-colonial puedan liberarse de ello, provocar crisis de identidades interpelando a esta gente es lo que puede hacer cambiar de pensamiento.

Aquí nos han dicho que todos somos mestizos, pero se debe decir que detrás de la teoría del mestizaje, de decir “aquí no hay k’aras y indios…todos somos mestizos” se encubre una exclusión histórica a los indígenas que viven en el campo y también a los que vivimos en las ciudades porque muchos miles son obligados por la misma sociedad a parecer cada vez menos indígenas y a ser cada vez más mestizo y blancos en lo posible “ir mejorando poco a poco la raza””ir escalando desde lo más inferior que es ser indígena y pobre, hasta lo ideal que es ser blanco y adinerado ” Muchos no lo logran.

A propósito del dicho “mejorar la raza” y a tiempo de señalar que esto de la descolonización mental no es una teoría de las ONGs, señalo algunos aspectos reales de esta cuestión, porque los que vivimos en Bolivia y hemos crecido en familias y al medio de una sociedad aún con mentalidad colonial, sabemos bien en el día a día de que se trata. Son detalles, actitudes, frases y pensamientos que tú puedes ver y escuchar en la escuela, en la universidad, en la familia, en el mercado, en la tienda de la esquina que desde que uno nace lo palpa y que generan una voz interna que te dice constantemente que debes alejarte de tus raíces.

Por ejemplo en la universidad cuando habla de matrimonio, muchos jóvenes siempre hablan de “mejorar la raza”, término que significa que debes buscar a una pareja de piel más clara que la tuya, una extranjera seria la lotería. Otro ejemplo que se utiliza siempre es el término “se le ha salido su indio” que se utiliza cuando una persona al discutir o pelear se descontrola por completo. Otro ejemplo es cuando alguien se emborracha más de lo debido se escucha decir “peor que indio ha tomado”, o cuando alguien se viste mal le dicen que “ni el indio se viste así”, o cuando nace un niño en el hospital el primer comentario que se escucha es “ha nacido bien blanquito ese niñito”, el peor insulto que te pueden decir es decirte “puta indio”, ect, etc, etc.

Ser tildado de indio es grave, peor en Sucre, que no ha progresado casi nada en este aspecto.

Entonces aquí no hay una lucha entre blancos e indios, ambos están en la “izquierda y la derecha”. Si debemos luchar por descolonizar la mente de blancos e indios, que creen que es natural que haya subyugados en una sociedad.

Y es verdad decir que el racismo en Bolivia es un problema de los que golpean, de los que insultan y no dejan entrar a las ciudades a los campesinos, es su complejo de inferioridad de los que no reconocen el pluralismo cultural, de religión, de idioma, de creencias, de un país con varias visiones y de los que ignoran por completo la historia de esta parte del mundo. Así en Sucre, la ignorancia y de la que tanto se habla, no había estado en el campo.

12:53 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

I'm getting hate-blogs again.. how cool is that. E.L., I wasn't justifying any action. I'm simply stating that th DC throwing the race card seems to miss the mark. All reports I've heard (and I admit I'm in Santa Cruz) are more along the lines of Anon 12:12's post. But thanks for caring. Looking forward to your next post.

1:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is amazing how the anti-Evo crowd shows no shame for these racist acts. Really disgusting.

2:15 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

When the facts aren't on one's side, just keep screaming "racism" louder.

2:50 PM  
Blogger E.L. said...

Don't be so disengenious Gitmo-Norman.

Bushie that you are, must you make false statements of fact?:
1. "The campesinos kneeling are not so much shirtless as poncho-less".
Jim's posted picture and video linked disprove that.

2. Their red ponchos were taken away away and burned (see the foreground).
There was only one poncho/prop. No evidence of "ponchos" "taken away" exist because that lie is pro-insurgency disinformation.

3. "... your absolute insistence in ignoring the political aspect and the para-military nature of the Poncho Rojos marching into Sucre".
The victims were local unarmed campesinos (including a local mayor) shepherded to face possible death at the hands of the mob you support by your inaction or failure to speak out and renounce those violent racist acts. But then you're silent about Abu-Ghraib and Gitmo (aka Guantanamo) torture.

3. "... I don't feel a great deal of compassion for the Poncho Rojos";
But then that's how it is with "compassionate conservatives" like you and your leader Bush. You're inhumane.

4."All reports ... are more along the lines of Anon 12:12's post"
That post is false like your above "facts".
That post falsely claims the same as you yet there is no such evidence as you can see for yourself at: http://sucreando.blogspot.com/

Ps. This was not a "hate-blog". Just partisan, vigorous political argumentation.

2:54 PM  
Blogger E.L. said...

'E.L. demonstrates his "tolerance" by calling his opponents "homosexuals".'

Typical Republican misinformation. I just noted that Republican culture includes many self-hating homosexuals who gay-bash for political gain through polarization of the nation. I am intolerant of hypocrites NOT on the basis of gender orientation.

It is understandable that "Frank IBC"'s sensitivities as to that topic may have made his gaydar go off.

3:02 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

E.L. -

"Argument by label" is lame.

Using your own idiotic labels again, further down in your post, in an attempt to prove your arguments, is even lamer.

3:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

EL,

You gotta be kidding me? Where were you when the MAS beat up that congresswoman who wanted to attend the session where the CPE was being voted on?

Where were you when the MAS beat up that 'indigena' for simply having a sign counter to their liking?

Where were you when the MAS beat up Pacifist Movement supporters on the Plaza Abaroa?

I find it very hypocritical that you tear your clothes over this, where it appears no one was harmed, but are MIA on these others.


Now don't try to muddy the waters with your Bush, Gitmo, WMD, or other extraneous facts. The issue here is what is going in Bolivia, not what Bush is doing, who is picking Osama's nose, or if they have hot water in New Orleans.

The issue here is that intolerance and racism are running wild in Bolivia like in no other time in their history. And so far the all the evidence points to EVO as the reason for this. He's the one (like Bush) who pandered to the worse in people. He fueled the flames of intolerance, racism, hate and fear on his speeches every single day. He de-humanized all that opposed (or even dared question him) as Yanquee financed KKK types solely for his PERSONAL political gain.

Too bad you fell for such cheap carnival tricks.

3:26 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

E.L., you misunderstand me (and you take me far too literally). When I say they were not so much shirtless as poncho-less, I mean is that the clothing article that caused such consternation and was removed from them was the poncho, a fact that Aldo and Yi-Ching blithely ignored. To be honest, I don’t know if they had shirts on underneath their ponchos.

As to whether they wore the poncho was there as a prop, who’s being disingenuous?! The DC took the photo (without giving credit I might add) from El Deber. If it’s a good enough source for the photo, isn’t it worth reading what they had to say? ” Derrotados. Campesinos y militantes del MAS fueron obligados a pedir perdón por llegar hasta Sucre a tomar las calles y les quemaron sus ponchos rojos”

Are you saying that they weren’t PRs? Please provide a source for your info then. All I can do is use what media is available. (btw, ref your point #4, I don’t use blogs as references.

As to my “silence” on Abu Graib and Gitmo, you’re obviously new to the blog. I’ve decried Abu Graib a number of times on this very blog. You’ve obviously read my profile, therefore you know I’m a former Marine. Prisoners are to be treated humanely. I was taught this from the beginning of my career and firmly believe in it. The reason is multi-faceted and easy to understand. Information obtained under duress is unreliable; we don’t want our own people to be subjected to reprisal actions; and finally, IT’S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!! Moreover, if you get caught treating prisoners inhumanely, it does irreparable harm to your overall effort as we have plainly seen. Abu Graib and any such prisoner abuse are criminally stupid. But as mentioned above, this thread is about Bolivia.

My lack of compassion for the poncho rojos may merit an analogy. There is another group in the US that likes to wear a similar outfit to instill fear where they march, except their outfit is white. If a group of KKK marched robed into a city and were stripped of their robes and their robes burned, would you feel compassion for them? Remember, my most recent memory of the poncho’d wonders is their hanging and slitting the throats of a couple of harmless animals. I don’t support the actions taken against the PRs in this case. The actions were wrong and do not serve the best interests of Bolivia. It’s vigilantism. But neither can I empathize with these poncho’d militants. Gotta go now. Enjoyed the interchange.

4:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My respects to Norman. He is the most coherent and level headed person in this blog, and, dare I say, with Semper Fi cojones and brains twice as large as EL (if it has any).

Very boring, EL. Be more original.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

5:02 PM  
Blogger E.L. said...

Gitmo Norm,

The photo is what it is: a staged photo (like the ones your fellow Abu-Ghraib military members took which wound up shown all over the world to recruit Al Qaeda members). It was designed-in concert with El Deber-to demonize campesinos by framing them with a prop (ONE red poncho)by printing an accompanying story of misinformation which was printed ONLY in El Deber. That the lie about "red ponchos" is a lie is obvious. The proof lies in that that lie was not spread-other than by El Deber and YOU-because of its falsehood. Otherwise it would have been a scoop: A regiment of Red Ponchos were taken captive; their red ponchos and mausers would be exhibits paraded before the world. That was not the case. The story was and is: poor indigenous campesinos-in town to see their fellow indegenous president-were gathered up in the night to be tortured, beaten, humilated and framed by UCJ members (which Sucre press refered to as "infiltrators") , college age hooligans, Jaime Barron and El Deber's agents.

By spreading your collective lie, you are also framing those poor campesinos, which includes a local mayor.

Anon 5:02,
I should be creative like you, who always posts the same nine words promoting Croats?

6:25 PM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

Mindlessly repeating "Gitmo", "Abu Ghraib", "Bushies", "Republicans", "closeted homosexuals", does not in any way address the issue of the Ponchos Rojos in Sucre, E.L.

It just keeps showing you for the idiot that you are.

6:51 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

I understand that you don't want it to be true, and that's fine. If they had, in fact, captured an entire regiment of PRs, perhaps it would have seen greater coverage. As it is I count possibly 7 individuals, somewhat less than a regiment (just under a thousand men) and somewhat less newsworthy. Now capturing a local mayor; that would be newsworthy. I don't doubt your veracity - just please produce a reference. And if at all possible, try to do so without your flare for exageration and baseless insults.

Oh, BTW, the PRs don't march with Mausers anymore as their president told them not to; they march with ponchos. Last word is yours as I'll be offline for a day or two.

9:05 PM  
Blogger E.L. said...

Gitmo Norm,

You are correct. Capturing a mayor is newsworthy; Not just that, it angers the association of municipalities of which that mayor's municipality is a member. Here is one of the cites you requested regarding who you condemn as being associated with poncho rojos, Angel Vallejos, the mayor of Mojocoya, a nearby municipality:

"La autoridad edilicia deploró la actitud de los manifestantes que flagelaron, humillaron y obligaron a campesinos a pedir perdón semidesnudos en vía pública, entre ellos, el alcalde del municipio chuquisaqueño de Mojocoya, Angel Vallejos"

http://www.erbol.com.bo/noticia.php?identificador=49440&id=1

9:55 PM  
Blogger E.L. said...

Readers,
The right wing reactionaries on this blog would have you believe the racist inhumanity that occurred against humble campesinos by those thwarting Evo's delivery of ambulances and other services to the rural poor folk. It was not. It was Sucre elites following the model Manfred Reyes Villa set in a year ago in January (with the help of Santa Cruz shock troops from the UCJ).

See the evidence within these videos for yourselves and judge Gitmo Norm and Frank IBC's lies about how this is being disguised as being an "issue of the Ponchos Rojos in Sucre". You will see this is really about race, economics, again transferring wealth from Bolivia to the elites and overthrowing Evo's democratically elected government:


http://www.youtube. com/sucretino

http://es.youtube. com/watch? v=5RXUkPrYHcE& feature=related

http://es.youtube. com/watch? v=LsYSYnqfbME

http://es.youtube. com/watch? v=e_08exWkch4

10:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've seen the footage and I do not think that there is racism involved. Just because the victims where indigenous (as were the aggressors) it does not mean it was racially motivated. The hostages appear to be politically targeted.

Now, if anything the people of Sucre should be applauded by their restraint. Some of you might be familiar with the Telepolicial, and it is almost a weekly routine for it to show Alten~os lynching people or even freezing them to death for being merely under the suspicion.

Sucre was under threats for months now of a invasion by MAS sympathizers, who have even been invoking the image of Zarate Willka. It is a well known fact that Sucren~os (right or wrong) want satisfaction from Evo for what they believe was Goni-type genocide. Evo that knew that he would have the same reception in Sucre that Goni would have El Alto. His decision to go to Sucre was a provocation.

These individuals were merely guilty of being the vanguard of a pseudo invasion. They were guilty of being used by the MAS (just like Linera used those men he killed with his failed explosion) in order to have blood and claim some martyrs to their side.

We all know that if the UJC sent a van with their members, carrying the Santa Cruz flag and posters of Costas, they would not make it to the Tranca.

Some perspective is needed. Evo needs to stop provoking and seeking more martyrs. They have already followed my advice to negotiate using the MAS CPE and the Estatuto as starting points. There is already a referendum in progress with rules skewed to Evo's favor. There is no need to take these types of gambles...

10:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Boy, the so called expert on everything Bolivia cracks me up.

“I'm sure it would have come out later in the comments, but it would have been nice if Jim, Aldo, and Yi-Ching had bothered to comment that in the photo, the folks standing around the shirtless campesinos are also of indigenous descent. In fact, I couldn't find a single euro face.”

Notice, the absurd comment of Anon 8:46

“Ah, yes, racism. Leftie's favorite word to rev up outrage, indignation, and demands for righteous justice...when it fits their ideology and agenda. Unfortunately, such emotions also cloud objectivity and capacity of calm analysis, well demonstrated by DC's latest article.”

Franco

11:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's us continue lying, killing, stealing, lying more, just like the chain of the mafia want us to.
The flow is miami, gusano AID phony corporations and NGOs, goldberg,costas,mariconvick, tuto,reyesvilla. Then to lower levels the money keeps going down to types like Caba, Nava, cossio. the press gets their news and editorials writen and typed ready to be read.
At the bottom are the thugs, civico neonazis, idiots, illeterate gangs.
Do not forget the corrupted judges, police who have not arrested anybody.
Easy money, US taxpayers money going to the miami worms as usual.
Democracy they claim, freedom they chant. Have they lived under Banzer, Garcia Meza, Barrientos, and other criminals? Yes, that is when they took all the money and deposited in their bank accounts in Europe and Washinton DC like Pinochet did.
Amazing the right wing is just amazing. They must think that we are stupid like them.

12:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 28, 2008; Page A01

Former White House press secretary Scott McClellan writes in a new memoir that the Iraq war was sold to the American people with a sophisticated "political propaganda campaign" led by President Bush and aimed at "manipulating sources of public opinion" and "downplaying the major reason for going to war."

12:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, EL, be more original. You're
(yawn) boring.

Don't forget: quality over quantity.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

8:13 AM  
Blogger Frank_IBC said...

Jeez, these folks are like robots. Their answer to EVERYTHING is BUSH!!! ABU GHRAIB!! WAR FOR OIL!!! No matter how irrelevant to the actual topic being discussed.

8:50 AM  
Blogger E.L. said...

Kroat-Klansman aka Anon 8:13AM,
How's this for "original" and "quality":

The UCJ are Kroat-Klansman Branko's SS
Sucre is Kroat-Klansman Branko's South Africa

12:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

El:

Wow! You came up with that all by yourself?

I don't know if to laugh or yawn.

(yawn)

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

PS Anybody has anything relevant to say during Mother's Day? I can post another favorite mama recipe.

1:52 PM  
Anonymous Lentamentalisk said...

Could we all grow up for a moment, stop flaming each other, and have a civilized discussion?
E.L you are really not helping your argument by spitting out flaming labels left and right.
Anonymous 1:52 you are being just as bad, adding to the end of each deep, though provoking comment with your own propaganda banner, that boring after reading it the first time.

Because I am not currently in Sucre (nor Bolivia at all for that matter) I will not debate the accuracy of the report, just discuss what has been said in it.

That being said, the argument that the torturers are darker skinned than those being tortured is moot, as the reports claim that they were being abused by thugs. Thugs are people who are paid to do things that they wouldn't normally do on their own accord, for pay.

I know not if there were other atrocities as bad as this committed by MAS, or how provoked this was, but none the less, I hope that, being humans, this sort of horrid humiliation is wrong, and should never happen to anybody, left or right, campesino or white, rich or poor.

Please stick to the topic. Bad things happened, for possibly racist reasons, and it should be stopped, on both sides. (Nothing to do with Gitmo or WMDs, and most likely not funded by Bush, though I am not going to make any assumptions.)

-making an attempt to get a respectful bipartisan discussion since I was born,
Lentamentalisk

9:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"PS Anybody has anything relevant to say during Mother's Day? I can post another favorite mama recipe."


Happy mother's day to Norman and his side kick ;-).

12:37 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

First: apologies for posting on a thread that may already be dead, but as I mentioned, I've been offline for a bit. Concerning remarks by Lentamentalisk, I fully agree that the insults add nothing and are at best a distraction from the topic at hand, but I have to disagree as to the relevance of the skin color. The basic argument of the post was that this wasa clear example of racism. The photo does not support that argumnet, nor does anything else in the article. There certainly is racism involved in the Bolivian political landscape, but calling this one racism distracts from the real cause (completely political) is irresponsible (unless the authors can provide more data).

I will concede one thing. as I've reviewed EL's arguments, I have to confess that I too quickly accepted El Deber's claim that these 7 were Poncho Rojos, and I let that distract me from the point as well. The actions were deplorable.

8:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is racism, I can assure it. Those boys that mistreated the natives believe that in spite of not having white features they are the nearest thing to white people because they are mestizos, they humiliate who doesn't speak Spanish well or who dressed typical clothes. The difference can even see when you buy something, people always treat better the mestizo and not to the native.
What happened is the explosion of something that has existed always in Bolivia, but that it never left to the light because never before the natives political levels so high, a government had never risked the interests of rich people. Some people believe that before everything was peace, but clear, that was peace for those people who were not humiliated, but it was not peace for those people who were humiliated and subjected and who used to be mistreated.
That is racism for me, although at first sight and for a forgein person a lot of difference doesn't exist among those who mistreated to the peasants and the own ones mistreated, a person of this country can notice what group you belong with a sight, I tells it to you because I am bolivian.
I hope bolivian people learn how to respect and to value all people and be more tolerant regarding the ideas of the other ones.
PD. Sorry, my English is really bad

1:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
轻型货架
中型货架
搁板式货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
托盘货架
托盘
木托盘
纸托盘
木塑托盘
托盘
钢托盘
塑料托盘
钢制托盘
仓储笼
仓库笼
折叠式仓储笼
手推车
静音手推车
铁板手推车
物料架
整理架
挂板架
钢制料箱
钢制周转箱
网格式料箱
料箱
手动液压托盘搬运车
电动托盘搬运车
手动液压堆高车
半电动堆高车
手动叉车
塑料周转箱
物流箱
塑料化工桶
塑料卡板箱
工具柜
上海工具柜
南京工具柜
抽屉柜
工作台
工作桌
南京工作台
上海工作台
刀具车
刀具柜
刀具架
刀具座

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架

南京货架
货架公司
货架厂
仓库货架
仓储货架
货架
货架

仓储货架
仓库货架
货架
货架厂
货架公司
南京货架
上海货架

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司
南京货架
上海货架
杭州货架
北京货架

货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
货架
轻量型货架
角钢货架
中量A型货架
中量B型货架
货位式货架
横梁式货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
悬臂式货架
贯通式货架
通廊式货架
驶入式货架
辊轮式货架
流利条货架
压入式货架
移动式货架
密集架
模具货架
抽屉式货架
汽车4S店货架
汽配库货架
自动化立体仓库货架

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架公司

货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司

货架
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
仓库货架
货架厂
货架厂
货架公司
货架公司
货架
货架
货架

货架
轻量型货架
角钢货架
货架
中量型货架
次重型货架
货位式货架
重量型货架
横梁式货架
仓储货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
仓储货架
悬臂式货架
仓储货架
贯通式货架
通廊式货架
驶入式货架
仓库货架
库房货架
抽屉式货架
模具货架
仓库货架
库房货架
汽车4S店货架
汽配库货架
货架厂
货架公司
南京货架
上海货架
无锡货架
苏州货架
货架厂
货架公司
北京货架
天津货架
沈阳货架
大连货架
货架厂
货架公司
广州货架
深圳货架
宁波货架
杭州货架

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
货架厂
货架公司
搁板式货架
轻型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
通廊式货架
贯通式式货架
模具货架
抽屉式货架
悬臂式货架
南京货架
北京货架
广州货架
服装货架
精品货架
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
货价厂
搁板式货架
轻量型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
服装货架
精品货架
通廊式货架
贯通式货架
模具货架
抽屉式货架
悬臂式货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
广州货架

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
货架厂
货架公司
搁板式货架
轻型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
服装货架
精品货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
通廊式货架
贯通式货架
模具货架
抽屉式货架
悬臂式货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
广州货架
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
货架厂
货架公司
搁板式货架
轻量型货架
角钢货架
服装货架
精品货架
中型货架
横梁式货架
重型货架
货位式货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
通廊式货架
模具货架
抽屉式货架
悬臂式货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
广州货架

货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
货架厂
货架公司
搁板式货架
轻型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
阁楼式货架
钢平台
通廊式货架
贯通式货架
模具货架
抽屉式货架
悬臂式货架
南京货架
上海货架
北京货架
广州货架
货架
仓储货架
仓库货架
库房货架
货架厂
货架公司
搁板式货架
轻型货架
角钢货架
中型货架
重型货架
横梁式货架
货位式货架
阁楼式货架
服装架
钢平台
精品货架
通廊式货架