The U.S.'s Bolivia Ambassador Heads North
Well, this week if you happen to find yourself waiting for your luggage at the rotating carousel at the Miami airport, you might find yourself reaching for your bag alongside of U.S. Ambassador to Bolivia, Philip S. Goldberg. According to the U.S. State Department, Ambassador Goldberg has been called back to Washington this week, "for consultations on Embassy security in the wake of violent protests in La Paz."This is just the further fallout from a major event a week ago in La Paz, a march of tens of thousands of Bolivians on the U.S. Embassy, angry about Washington's dogged protection of two Bolivian ex-politicians formally charged with murder in their home country – former President Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada and his top aide, Carlos Sánchez Berzaín.
"The Ambassador’s consultations will provide an opportunity to explore measures to enhance security cooperation with the Government of Bolivia," noted a State Department news release, adding, ''We are concerned by the recent statements of some Bolivian government officials that cast doubt on Bolivia’s commitment to fulfill its Vienna Convention obligations to protect diplomatic staff and facilities in the future."
No doubt, Goldberg's chat with his higher-ups in Washington will focus on the 'unpeaceful' nature of the protests – firecrackers tossed over the tall white granite walls, nearby cars vandalized, conflicts with national police dispatched to protect the fortress-like compound on the city's main street. Would it have been a lot smarter, politically speaking, if the vast crowds descending from El Alto had linked arms and sang, "All we are saying, is give ex-tra-di-tion a chance?" You bet.
But let's take a little reality check here. And let's examine a key point that will not likely make the agenda of Mr. Goldberg's Washington chats, a point repeatedly lost on both Republicans and Democrats alike:
There are a lot of people on this planet who are royally pissed off at the U.S. government for its actions abroad, and in a lot of cases they are royally in their right to be pissed.
Let's pass over for a moment the more news-grabbing examples and look at Bolivia as a case.
October 2003. Sánchez de Lozada, the man who gave away much of the nation's oil resources to foreign companies in his first term is at it again behind closed doors negotiating another highly questionable deal. This comes just months on the heels of his efforts to impose a new income tax on the working poor to help keep the IMF cheery about Bolivia, an event that set off a day of army vs. police shooting and 34 dead. And to make the gas deal even more attractive to Bolivians, he would send the gas and oil through that great 'stealer of the sea', Chile.
People across the country protested with a vengeance. What a surprise.
Were some of the protests extreme? Well there is the small matter of cutting off the road between La Paz and Sorata, stranding 300 tourists. There were also the efforts to keep fuel and food supplies out of La Paz. Did the government have an obligation to act to bring the crisis to the end? Sure. Did that require Sánchez de Lozada and Sánchez Berzaín to declare open hunting season on El Alto and the aliplano, leaving dozens dead, including Nancy Rojas, an eight-year-old shot through the window of her family's home?
Sánchez de Lozada's own Vice-President, Carlos Mesa didn’t think so, which is why he publicly broke with the government. Neither did a wide swath of Bolivia's human rights, academic, religious and intellectual leadership, which went on hunger strike to demand the President's resignation.
But the Bush administration? When virtually everyone save for Sánchez de Lozada's own family had come to the conclusion that the only peaceful exit was for Goni to go, the U.S. State Department and Embassy publicly announced their backing and pronounced any resignation to be an anti-democratic act.
Think August 1974 and what U.S. public reaction might have been if, even as Barry Goldwater was calling on Nixon to leave, the government of China made a public declaration saying "Hang in there Dick!" And then imagine that Air Force One had dropped him off not in San Clemente, but in Beijing where he was given permanent political asylum against prosecution at home.
Yeah, we all would have been fine with that. No problem. U.S. voters even kicked Gerald Ford out of the White House for pardoning Nixon.
There is an easy reason why Sánchez de Lozada and Sánchez Berzaín have been given safe haven by the Bush administration. 'Impunity' is a concept with which the Bush administration feels very, very comfortable. What will history say later about an administration taking the nation to war based on false premises and no one, not a single official high or low, ever being held accountable? What will history say about one President being impeached for perjuring himself about sex while another directly violated the law with illegal surveillance on U.S. citizens without the required court orders, and nothing happened at all?
The Bush administration believes in political impunity the way other people believe in baseball or soccer or well-brewed coffee -- a lucky thing for Goni and Berzaín.
Are there legitimate questions about whether Sánchez de Lozada and Sánchez Berzaín can get a fair trial in Bolivia? Of course. It isn't even clear that they could make it safely out of the Al Alto airport (though they might be welcomed with cheers in Santa Cruz). So what is that supposed to mean – there is no other way to seek justice other than give them happy suburban refuge in Maryland and Miami respectively? The two have also claimed even exemption from the U.S. civil case against them, an argument that didn’t work out so well for ex-Salvadoran dearth squad members living in the U.S. who lost a similar suit.
So who knows what Goldberg and the folks at Foggy Bottom will chat about this week. How to make a massive white granite wall higher still? How much tear gas their small Marine contingent should keep in storage?
In the unlikely event that a glimmer of reality seeps in to those meetings this week, it would probably sound something like this:
You know, there are a lot of Bolivians who are really, really pissed off that we have given effective political asylum to two men with copious amounts of blood on their hands? Got any ideas of what we can do to let a legitimate court listen to all the evidence and make a fair judgment?
But don't stay awake waiting up for that State Department news release.
91 Comments:
You forgot one KEY fact:
Evo's government has not done a single thing in persecuting these guys.
All the had to do was simply file criminal charges for taking the money out of the BCB and case closed, no asylum.
Which makes me believe that Evo also does not care about bringing them back. It is probably more politically convenient having them abroad in the US so they can sing their chants.
May be they realize that they ALSO NEED to (at the very least) answer questions regarding provoking civil unrest. We all know that Evo feels that the government has the right to kidnap citizens who do this, so may be they want to stay clear of that.
Also, you omit a key detail. The whole thing is not at the discretion of the Executive Branch, but rather the judicial. May be you have been in Bolivia too long. In Bolivia the Executive can order the Judicary around, not in the US. The US has separation of powers.
Finally, my favorite annecdote of the whole thing is Choquehuanca telling the people that having an ambassador recalled is a normal thing.
Can they try them in a different venue? Like Nuremberg, Hague? That could be brillant move by Evo...then again I insist that he does not want them in jail. He needs them free so he can sing his songs
http://www.la-razon.com/versiones/20080618_006307/nota_247_616574.htm
There you go again with dishonest half-truths and outright lies. Morales has proved to head a disastrous government, generating new conflicts by the day.
This has so far led to thirty seven dead Bolivians and their grieving families, but also to increased hatred between West and East, collas and cambas, brother against brother.
Claiming the US government is liable for every opposition move goes well beyond anything Mussolini and his German friend used to say. Supporting the mobs and sending innocent to burn a foreign embassy is not exactly consistent with the Vienna convention. But then, as in Nazi Germany, who cares about the truth?
The only winner of this mess is the narcotics export business.
Jim, I'm not following you. Are you justifying the mob actions and Morales' firing of the police chief? Are you saying that violent protests against an embassy are appropriate and that the Bolivian governemnt should just stand aside and let things develop? Are you too looking for martyrs?!?! You do realize that the embassy grounds are US territory don't you? Do you think the mob realizes that? If they actually did get in and treated US citizens on US territory the way they treat Bolivian citizens on Bolivian territory, the Marines might not be too diplomatic. Jim, just what is your point?
The Bolivian government has not requested extradition. Nor has the US government commented on the man's Florida resident status; i understood that we don't know if asylum was granted. Yet Morales decries the lack of extradition: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/18/content_8391257.htm
Can someone explain this? I feel I'm missing a significant detail.
Also, does anyone think the Ambassador's return speaks to any increased threat of violence in the country?
Norman,
There is nothing in Jim's message that says that it is okay to burn down embassies. You need to relax. Some people in Bolivia are upset that these individuals are not being tried in Bolivia for their alleged crimes and they in part blame the U.S. for this (justifiably). I don't see why you or the other commentators on this blog should be confused by this.
Best,
Will
Anon and your "key fact"
Asylum decisions are under the purview of the executive branch, specifically the Office of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice (see here http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/asylumrefugee_us.html). During the Bush administration the immigration judges that have made these types of decisions have been highly politicized (see here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/10/AR2007061001229.html).
BEst,
Will
Will, the US Ambassador did not head north because of the protests; he headed north because of Morales response. The Bolivian police chief used minimal and apporpriate force to prevent an escalation to the mob violence. For this he was sacked. That sends a message. In case it wasn't clear enough, Morales' personnel reinforced their unwillingness to comply with Vienna Connvention obligations. Jim minimizes the "social sector's" violent behavior then plays his standard "re-direct" card. This is Jim's routine; when he cannot defend the MAS actions, he attacks some ancillary theme and uses hyperbole to distort the facts. Jim chose the title of the thread post, yet he quickly brushes it off as insignificant and goes on his beaten-into-the-ground tangent. In fact, he appears to approve of their violent methods.
Jim should have thought a little bit more before displaying his utter lack of understanding of the obligations of a host country in protecting embassies.
Although he admits Goni and Sanchez Berzain might not receive a fair trial in Bolivia, he says the only reason they're safe in the US is because the Bush administration justifies "impunity."
I expected a little more maturity and objectivity on your part, Jim.
This whole issue is bigger than the supposed grievances of the band of professional thugs and their serfs forced into the march from El Alto. The host country (in this case Bolivia) had the obligation of protecting the US Embassy's grounds from a violent mob, where on of its leaders admitted they were thinking of burning it down. Instead of discouraging such acts, the bottomless stupidity of Morales' government praised such acts.
Only the valiant actions of the police and its commander prevented a possible disaster. Anybody here think the Marines would have stood idle once the thugs would have invaded Embassy grounds? They would have done anything to prevent another Tehran 1979. Those brave policemen actually prevented a bloodbath.
No wonder Morales and his minions exploded in rage and demoted the commander.
So, instead of Jim wallowing in self-hate and guilt for US foreign policy and childlishly attacking the Bush Administration, he should recognize the brave policemen who confronted the professional thugs not only saved the lives of many (including those of the thugs), and that the Morales government violated the most basic law in international relations. Would Jim have justified that a Peruvian mob storm the Bolivian embassy in Peru because Bolivia denied the extradition of a suspected terrorist? I don't think so.
That's the issue, Jim.
Morales has shot himself so many time on his feet so many times they're not more than bloody unrecognizable stumps. Ergo, he has only himself to blame for (not officially filing for their extradition, calling Goni and el Zorro "genocides", etc) them to continue to enjoy their luxurious freedoms in the US.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Morales is Black Hole stupid
thanks for the correction Will. I was under the erroneous impression that assylum was case law.
Nevertheless, I still think Morales has his share of the blame for letting these individuals obtain assylum.
Jim, you are an honest man. You have the courage of your convictions. I beleive like you, if you hate your country you should move out.
You did and I thank you. Now, STAY OUT!!!!
Actually, I'm not sure what the Marines would do although I'm sure they have written policy on the issue. That may be aprt of what Mr. Goldberg is discussing up north. Rather than provide vitims for social secotr mobs, he may be reviewing options of reducing the US presence which I'm sure many on this blog would love to see, but probably would not be in Morales' best interest.
am I the only one who is bummed about Tim Russert?
I was trying to explain to my wife about him, but I don't think Bolivia has a Tim Russert...or for that matter, I do not think there is a Lat Am equivalent of him.
If there is, please do let me know. God knows I need something to do with my Sunday Mornings..
Anon states: So, instead of Jim wallowing in self-hate and guilt for US foreign policy and childlishly attacking the Bush Administration, he should recognize the brave policemen who confronted the professional thugs not only saved the lives of many (including those of the thugs), and that the Morales government violated the most basic law in international relations.
Anon, I have met many of the people who marched on the embassy that day, including the families of the 67 who died in 2003. To suggest they are professional thugs is an affront to logic and common human decency. You can disagree with their politics but having witnessed their grief first-hand I think you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Let me be clear, I am not passing comment here on whether the march was justified or not, though you can guess my private thoughts.
As for taking offense to the Vienna Convention possibly not being enforced, the position you hold on many other issues precludes you from taking a moral standpoint on these matters. You are being a clear hypocrite.
I would suggest you should review your standards of decency before you start questioning Jim's integrity.
If you have principles Anon, then apply them across the spectrum. Many of us here accept Berzaín and Goni would not have a fair trial in Bolivia and grudgingly accept that legally they should not be extradited. It shows that our opinions are not blinkered by ideology but on clear moral points that apply across the board to left and right, socialist and capitalist. If you want your opinions to be taken seriously on this board you should probably throw a few more crumbs before you take the moral high ground.
The commenter above makes an all too frequent mistake.
Loving the U.S. as one's country does not therefore require that we also love George Bush. In fact, given his lying us into a war and abandoing the people of New Orleans during Katrina (to name a few of his achievements) it seems clear to many people that the way to truly love the U.S. is to not love George Bush or his politics, but to change our nation's direction, including its policies in Latin America.
Truly anon above, is that concept really so complicated to comprehend?
OK, Bowsie, next time I'll write be sure to add in the word "most", as in "most of the marchers were professional thugs and their paid serfs." No need to include the family members of those who were killed in 2003.
I've been near such marches and know as a fact each of these had professional agitators, i.e. a bunch of goons destroying anything in their path while extorted serfs chant whatever they were ordered to. Therefore, while I don't deny there are people who have personally suffered in 2003 and have legitimate reasons for protesting, it doesn't obscure the fact that this protest was done by professional thugs and extorted serfs, encouraged by the Morales government.
By the way, the extorted serfs had to be present in the march lest they be fined.
http://abi.bo/index.php?i=noticias_texto&j=200806100744220x
I stand by my position that Morales violated the most principle norm in international law: to willfully protect the embassies on Bolivian soil.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
By the way, the extorted serfs had to be present in the march lest they be fined.
For anybody who understands the community system in Bolivia this comment is an arrogant attempt to distort a different system of community organisation. In Australia, you are fined if you do not vote, that does not make voters "hired thugs". In many Bolivian communities that have local judiciary, the principle is the same. The decision to march is a popular one, and those who do not 'help out' the community by marching are forced to make a donation. This is a democratic system decided upon by elders who are supported by the majority of people. Your inability to appreciate another form of organisation is your problem. You may disagree with it but it dispels the "hired thugs" remark. As if the poor of Bolivia needed financial encouragement to display anger at the United States. How suitably condescending of you.
I stand by my position that Morales violated the most principle norm in international law: to willfully protect the embassies on Bolivian soil.
Most of us agree that the Vienna convention be upheld. What we object to is that it is being used as a reason by people such as yourself you have shown blatant disregard for international law. It is clear hypocrisy to cherry-pick which international laws you choose to recognise. It means your credibility is diminished. We recognise that you object on the basis of ideology only. That makes your position ridiculous.
Bowsie,
You seem to be a reasonable person. However, only now you got a clue that "Mole" is what he is?
You wrote of his "blatant disregard for international law...hypocrisy to cherry-pick which international laws [he] choose[s] to recognise...[his] credibility is diminished...object[s] on the basis of ideology only. That makes [his] position ridiculous."
When did he have any credibility?
What's ridiculous is you've been unable to fathom that he is a mole. Nomenclature is a tool; use it. Use "anon" only if you want to tax the readers who seek to understand to whom you refer.
Yeah, but those who vote in Australia leave a trail of fear and destruction, bowsie. So, I stand by my remark that most of these marchers are professional thugs and extorted serfs.
Now, tell me where in the Bolivian constitution it says it's allowable to fine people who don't want to "participate" in marches. Tell me where it says in the Bolivian constitution that "local judiciaries" supercede the national one. Tell me where it's allowed to threaten to harass people and burn private property.
Now, you say these marches are a democratic system decided upon by elders who are supported by the majority of people. Now, I don't know who do you refer to as the "majority of the people (Alteños, Masistas, serfs?)," but they are not the real "majority of the people." Ask how many paceños (or Bolivians, by that matter) are in favor of professional thugs and extorted serfs causing vehicular chaos and threaten to burn down private property, and I'm sure they won't be the "majority" you pretend them to be.
Furthermore, don't confuse the majority in a democracy as being able to trample the rights of the minority just because they feel like so.
Okay, so it seems you're upset that "people like me" are invoking international law too much. Tell you what: let's forget about that being the reason why Morales should protect the US embassy. Why don't we say he should because it's civilized and common courtesy?
Nothing ridiculous about that.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Just add a "don't" between "Australia" and "leave" in the first sentence in my comment, bowsie.
That wouldn't be ridiculous.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
so I'm reading the local press and I ran into the following passage by Luis Eduardo Siles:
"Pues es exactamente lo que en octubre del 2003 Morales, Mamani, Quispe, entre otros, lograron con la parodia criminalmente embustera de oponerse a Chile y al supuesto plan de vender gas a través de sus puertos. Instigados entre muchos otros por Édgar Patana y Roberto de la Cruz, que ha sido filmado linchando a un hombre en El Alto y permanece absolutamente impune ante ese crimen y otras acusaciones, los ´héroes de octubre´ desataron una violencia descontrolada que enlutó a Bolivia y ahora exigen, con métodos similares, que quienes participaron en esos hechos del lado del Gobierno sean enjuiciados unilateralmente."
Does anyone know if this is true? How many of the 60+ dead and hundreds of injured were due to the Protestor's actions and not due to Govt's actions? Does anyone know? Shouldn't the organizers of the protests be liable for the consequences?
El Grindio, try as I may, I'm unable to respond to you without yawning all the time. That's the effect you have on people.
Ridiculous? Maybe, but true.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Mole,
"Ridiculous?" Yes, you're right to hold yourself self in such low self-esteem for not being able to make a counter-argument and resorting your self-admitted "ridiculous" comments. Since you have come to terms with your ridiculousness, yawn all you want. It was not genetically possible for you to craft responses to the case made against your ridiculous comments. Blame your gene pool for your ridiculous comments that speak volumes about your open-mouthed breathing, low self-esteem, ridiculous self.
Thanks for your laugh-provoking claim to know what effects comments have on "people" (who reside in various parts of the world). It was funny in that same way that your "Croats are..." mantra is ridiculed by other commentators.
Move the embassy to Sucre, now.
Anon 2:56, lynchings (oops..."community justice") have been the norm in Bolivia for quite some time now, prompting the Human Rights Foundation in its latest report to deplore that some members of the Morales government support such savagery.
http://www.humanrightsfoundation.org/reports/Informe_Bolivia_Justicia_Comunitaria_Ene-15-2008.pdf
Unitel recorded this de la Cruz dude, who is a councilman in El Alto, the time he actively encouraged the lynching of a trembling seminaked victim near a bonfire. The police, despite being violently attacked by the vicious mob, barely rescued the "lynchee." No word as yet if this police squad was demoted for using "excessive force" for impeding "community organizing." Did I mention it was democratic?
http://www.la-razon.com/Versiones/20070418_005880/nota_256_415934.htm
De la Cruz? Was recently promoted to interim El Alto mayor. Yay!
http://www.bolpress.com/art.php?Cod=2007121901
You have a very good point on asking who bears responsibility for the 60+ deaths. Does the government bear responsibility? Sure. Do the protestors and especially its instigators, too? Absolutely, even more.
Morales and his minions created "El Estado Mayor del Pueblo" shortly before Sanchez de Lozada was forced to resign. Its main objective was to paralize Bolivia, spread chaos, and "refound" the country. Armed cocaleros roamed Chapare planting explosives called "cazabobos. Hungry and sick travelers weren't able to pass blockades made by drunk Morales and Mallku minions. And the list goes on and on.
Unfortunately, the main people responsible for the massacres that resulted in the death of so many people are in the government. Morales has caused destruction, poverty, death, and unemployment since his cocalero days 20 years ago. If you ask me he deserves the term "genocidal" much more than the "genocidals" he's accusing.
The inmates run the asylum, no doubt.
:-(
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Bowsie,
You seem to be a reasonable person. However, only now you got a clue that "Mole" is what he is?
Why is he a mole?
I just don't understand the point of deciding on an ideology (in Anon's case, right-wing) and then viewing the entire world through that prism. Effectively preventing yourself from forming a reasonable opinion.
I have to admit, that my hopes for Morales stopped me from criticizing el MAS for the cronies they have become, but at some point you've got to take a look at the problems in Bolivia and recognise that there are very few good guys in terms of power brokers.
Jim had a great article recently where he laid out the motivations behind the main players and not many of them are admirable.
What baffles me is when some people on this board cannot grasp that the majority of Bolivian people (i.e. the poor indigenous) are upset at their treatment at the hands of their previous governments. They have absolutely no trust in government today because their trust has been consistently broken. That is why they self-organise into groups, have their own justice system (which, I point out for our more right-wing friends, I am not defending) and march consistently. Are they right all the time? No. Are they right not to trust the government, constitution and develop their own power bases? Absolutely. Even if some of the effects have been bad for Bolivia, and perhaps have lost their relevancy.
I would just appeal to people like my recent sparring partner Anon to try and take a look at things from the point of view of the most downtrodden in Bolivia. They are desperate, they are sometimes mistaken in their actions but they are right in not letting politicians decide their fate anymore.
That's why they are sometimes right to march, to express anger. And they are right to seek justice against Goni and Berzaín, even if that is not possible with the terrible criminal justice system in Bolivia whose ineffectiveness el MAS have compounded.
This post has been removed by the author.
This post has been removed by the author.
Anon 2:56, lynchings (oops..."community justice") have been the norm in Bolivia for quite some time now, prompting the Human Rights Foundation in its latest report to deplore that some members of the Morales government support such savagery.
The violence that has followed the rise of community justice is a big concern and I agree with you (though wouldn't be as extreme as you are) in laying much of the blame at Morales' and el MAS' door. Even if the biggest pressure is coming from that joke of group Human Right's Foundation they are absolutely correct in saying that the new constitution would not obviously prevent lynching. At even though this is obviously not in the spirit of community justice, lynching appears to be increasing at a scary rate.
As I've indicated in a previous post, community justice and organisation may well have a very strong part to play in protecting Bolivian democracy but unless that power is now curtailed or made clearer in law then there is potential for chaos. There is a clear nasty element in some of the protests, and letting people label this murder as community justice is a challenge to the authority of Morales.
As a side note, Human Rights Foundation are a deplorable group. Run for political purposes, as evidenced by the fact that they claim to protect human rights in the Americas yet fail to mention Guantanomo Bay or the Columbian Government. Funded by soft money and by the son of a corrupt Venezuelan businessman, with reports exclusively on left-leaning South American governments. A wolf in sheep's clothing who, like many people here, apply the standards of human rights only to those victims that forward their political goal. That's not to say they are always wrong in what they say (i.e. community justice) but their motivations are despicable. It's like hearing Anon get upset about a breach of international law.
Bowsie:
You're right...these Board Members of HRW are deplorable, vile people! Elie Weisel, Garry Kasparov, Armando Valladares...I'm filled with nausea just thinking of them.
Kenneth Anderson
A human rights investigator with more than three decades of experience worldwide, Dr. Anderson is professor of law at the Washington College of Law, American University and a research fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution. He is a recognized authority on international human rights and served on the board of directors of Americas Watch (the precursor to Human Rights Watch). He is also founder and former director of the Human Rights Watch Arms Division. His expertise includes war and armed conflict, terrorism, nonprofit and charitable organizations, philanthropy, development finance and microcredit, and international business. For several years he served as general counsel to George Soros' charitable foundation, the Open Society Institute. He was the legal editor for Crimes of War (W.W. Norton, 1999). A Harvard Law School graduate, Dr. Anderson was the John Harvey Gregory Lecturer on World Organization at Harvard Law School from 1993 to 1995.
Vladimir Bukovsky
Vladimir Bukovsky is a Soviet dissident, author, and human rights activist who spent a total of twelve years in Soviet prisons, labor camps, and forced-treatment psychiatric hospitals. As a student, Mr. Bukovsky was expelled from his Moscow school for creating an unauthorized magazine. Subsequently he was forcibly interned in a psychiatric ward for organizing poetry meetings in the center of Moscow. On three more occasions he was arrested and imprisoned for organizing demonstrations defending other Soviet dissidents. After he managed to smuggle to the West documents detailing the Soviets' political use of psychiatric institutions, he was arrested and convicted for “slander of Soviet psychiatry.” While in prison he co-authored A Manual on Psychiatry for Dissidents to help other dissidents fight psychiatric torture. In December 1976, Bukovsky was exchanged in Zurich for Chilean communist leader Louis Corvalan. He moved to England, where he published his bestselling autobiography, To Build a Castle: My Life As a Dissenter. In 1983, with Armando Valladares, he founded and was elected president of Resistance International, which fought for the freedom of political prisoners throughout the Communist bloc. In 1992, President Yeltsin’s government invited Bukovsky to serve as an expert witness at the trial conducted to determine whether the activity of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was unconstitutional. The result of his testimony and research was the book Judgment in Moscow. In January 2004, with Garry Kasparov and others, he founded the Committee of 2008, an umbrella organization of the Russian democratic opposition that aims to ensure free and fair presidential elections in 2008. Bukovsky is also the author of Soviet Hypocrisy and Western Gullibility and To Choose Freedom.
Palden Gyatso
Born in a Tibetan village in 1933, Palden Gyatso had the opportunity as a young man to study at the renowned Deprung Monastery. Gyatso was ordained a Buddhist monk in 1950, two years after the Chinese invasion of Tibet. In 1959, he was arrested, tortured, and sent to Panam Dzong Prison on trumped-up charges of resisting Chinese occupation and spying for India; at this time, many other monks were also incarcerated or executed as political reactionaries. Gyatso would remain in Chinese prisons and labor camps for the next thirty-three years, during which he was regularly tortured, interrogated, indoctrinated, and persecuted for refusing to recant his religious and political beliefs. After watching many of his fellow prisoners executed on the strength of “confessions” extracted by physical and mental torture, Gyatso was eventually released from captivity in 1992. He escaped across the Himalayas into India, smuggling Chinese torture instruments as material proof of human rights abuses in Tibet. Since then, he has traveled widely to publicize the plight of Tibet's political prisoners; in 1995 he gave evidence at the United Nations Commission on Human Rights in Geneva. He has also written a memoir, published in English in 1997 as The Autobiography of a Tibetan Monk, in which Gyatso elegantly bears witness to the physical and mental anguish endured by Tibetan political prisoners, proudly upholds the resilience of the human spirit, and pays tribute to Tibetan culture's proud endurance under conditions of cultural genocide.
Garry Kasparov
A chess grandmaster since age 17, Garry Kasparov is widely considered to be the greatest chess player of all time. He holds records for the all time highest chess rating, the most consecutive chess tournament victories, the most Chess Oscars, and the longest time as the #1 rated chess player in world history. In 2004, Mr. Kasparov founded the Committee 2008: Free Choice group of Russian freedom advocates with the stated purpose of working for fair, democratic elections in Russia in 2008. He retired from chess in 2005 to devote himself fulltime to writing and human rights advocacy. An outspoken critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Mr. Kasparov created the United Civil Front, a social movement with a mission to prevent Russia from returning to totalitarianism. He is a frequent contributor to the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and various other news publications.
Mart Laar
Mart Laar was twice prime minister of Estonia. He led the struggling Baltic nation from a collapsing socialized system to a thriving economy after the end of Soviet occupation. His commitment to individual rights and limited government arises from his wider commitment to liberty. The Nazis shot his grandfather, and several other relatives were political prisoners under the Soviet regime that occupied Estonia for 50 years. During the late 1980s, Mr. Laar risked censure as a leader of Estonia’s Singing Revolution, a peaceful four-year struggle for freedom centered on the public performance of illegal patriotic songs. He also risked the wrath of Soviet authorities when, as a young historian, he dared to investigate Estonia’s resistance movement. The resulting book, War of the Woods: Estonia’s Struggle for Survival, 1944-1956, was published in 1992. His intimate knowledge of totalitarianism has inspired his work. In 2006, Mr. Laar won the Cato Institute’s Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty.
Armando Valladares
A living symbol of resistance, steadfast conviction, and unbendable perseverance, Mr. Valladares is Cuba’s most famous prisoner of conscience. As a punishment for his honesty and courage, Mr. Valladares spent 22 years in Cuba's prisons, where he was subjected to the most inhumane conditions, including daily torture, forced labor, and solitary confinement. It was only after much international pressure and a personal plea from French president François Mitterrand to Cuban dictator Fidel Castro that Mr. Valladares was released in 1982. He subsequently published his memoirs in the international best-seller Against All Hope: A Memoir of Life in Castro’s Gulag, and campaigned ceaselessly to expose the plight of Castro's political prisoners. After his release, Mr. Valladares was appointed U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, where his focus on Cuba led to the exposure of Castro's horrific prison system. Ambassador Valladares also co-founded Resistance International and is currently chairman of the Valladares Project, an international children’s rights advocacy nonprofit. President Ronald Reagan awarded him the Presidential Citizen’s Medal.
Álvaro Vargas Llosa
A renowned journalist and author, Mr. Vargas Llosa is one of Latin America’s foremost political analysts. He is senior fellow and director of the Center on Global Prosperity at The Independent Institute and has also been a board member of the Miami Herald Publishing Company. The author or co-author of twelve books focusing on human rights, economics, and the history of Latin American politics, he has also been an op-ed page editor and columnist at the Miami Herald as well as a contributor to the Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, BBC World Service, and TIME Magazine. He won the 2006 Fisher Award for his book Liberty for Latin America, which analyzes human liberty, personal responsibility, the rule of law, and the state’s role in enabling and sustaining human oppression. Mr. Vargas Llosa is a graduate of the London School of Economics.
Ramón José Velásquez
A historian, university professor, and former president of Venezuela (1993-1994), Ramón José Velásquez was jailed several times in the 1950s under the dictatorship of General Marcos Perez Jimenez. One of his arrests was due to his coauthoring the Black Book of the Dictatorship, a truthful account of the human rights violations of the government. During Venezuela’s first democratic government he served as chief of staff. In 1993, as a result of the institutional crisis produced by the impeachment of the President Carlos Andrés Pérez, the Venezuelan Congress designated him president of the Republic. During his distinguished public service career Mr. Velásquez has been a senator, congressional deputy, minister of communication, and cabinet secretary. Mr. Velásquez has also been actively involved in reporting the political and social history of Venezuela, contributing to newspapers and publishing several books. He was director of the Venezuelan national newspaper El Nacional and founder of the newspaper El Mundo. He was awarded the María Moors Cabot award in 1967 by Columbia’s School of Journalism.
Elie Wiesel
Elie Wiesel was fifteen years old when the Nazis deported him and his family to the Auschwitz concentration camps. After the war was over, he was eventually persuaded to write about his Holocaust experiences, producing his internationally-acclaimed memoir, Night, which ranks among the definitive works of Holocaust literature. Appointed chairman of the U.S. President's Commission on the Holocaust in 1978, Wiesel became the Founding Chairman of the United States Holocaust Memorial Council in 1980. He is the founding president of the Paris-based Universal Academy of Cultures and the Chairman of the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity. He has held professorships at the City University of New York, Yale University, and Barnard College, and is currently the Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities at Boston University. A lifelong human rights advocate, he has defended the cause of Soviet Jews, Nicaragua's Miskito Indians, Argentina's Desaparecidos, Cambodian refugees, the Kurds, victims of famine and genocide in Africa, of apartheid in South Africa, and victims of war in the former Yugoslavia. He has won numerous awards for his achievements in literature and human rights, including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Congressional Gold Medal of Honor, the Medal of Liberty Award, election to the American Academy of Arts and Letters, the rank of Grand-Croix in the French Legion of Honor, an honorary knighthood in the United Kingdom, as well as more than a hundred honorary degrees from institutions of higher learning. In 1986, Mr. Wiesel won the Nobel Prize for Peace. He has published more than forty works of fiction and nonfiction.
James Q. Wilson
A recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Dr. Wilson is currently the Ronald Reagan Professor of Public Policy at Pepperdine University; he was formerly professor of government at Harvard University and professor of management and public policy at UCLA. Dr. Wilson is the author of fourteen books on the nature of human morality, government, and criminal justice. His textbook on American government is more widely used on university campuses than any other government textbook. Wilson is past president of the American Political Science Association, which presented him with its Lifetime Achievement Award in 2001. Dr. Wilson has served on a number of national public policy commissions, and is an elected a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and the American Philosophical Society.
Harry Wu
The founder of the Laogai Research Foundation, Harry Wu has worked tirelessly for nearly two decades to alert the world to the abusive and inhumane conditions in China’s forced labor camps (laogai). Mr. Wu was a college student when he was imprisoned in the laogai after he criticized communism. He remained in prison for nineteen years, doing physical labor and witnessing the brutal deaths of countless fellow prisoners. He was regularly forced to “confess” his crimes. Released in 1979, he taught geology for several years at a Chinese university, and in 1985 settled in the U.S. In 1990, he was asked to testify about the laogai before the U.S. Senate, an experience that launched his career as a human rights activist. In 1992, he devoted himself fulltime to educating people about the laogai. On a research trip to China in 1995, he was arrested, tried, and convicted for “spreading state secrets,” and was sentenced to fifteen years in prison. Thanks to an international movement to free him, the Chinese government ejected him from the country rather than compel him to serve his sentence. Mr. Wu is the author of Bitter Winds: A Memoir of My Years in China’s Gulag. He lectures around the world, testifies regularly before governing bodies, and has received a number of awards for his humanitarian efforts, including the Award for Human Rights Defenders from Switzerland’s Martin Ennals Foundation, the Freedom Award from the Hungarian Freedom Fighters’ Federation, and the Medal of Freedom from the Dutch World War II Resistance Foundation.
Bowsie:
You're right...these Board Members of HRW are deplorable, vile people! Elie Weisel, Garry Kasparov, Armando Valladares...I'm filled with nausea just thinking of them.
Not Human Rights Watch, a legitimate Human Rights group. I'm talking about Human Rights Foundation - run by neo-conservatives.
But in one of my deleted comments above I had HRW in there by mistake so if you're commenting on that then sorry for my typo!
Quick off the mark all the same galloglass.... but surely in the context of my comment it was obvious I'd be a supporter of Human Rights Watch? Puzzling.
You're right, galloglass. The Human Rights Foundation council is certainly despicable.
I especially hate that Gasparov. Who does that chess master nerd think he is, smarter than the rest of us? Elie Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner. Hmph! What makes him so special? What about that Tibetan monk? I've never liked how they've dressed.
Off with their heads!
Bowsie, chill out with the personal attacks, dude. You gotta smile a bit. It's Friday!
If you categorize the Human Rights Foundation as a mouthpiece and funded by neoconservatives, I could very much well say that Human Rights Watch is a biased organization funded by lefties. Have you checked their list of donors and what causes they support? Spare me the objectivity shock.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Bowsie, chill out with the personal attacks, dude. You gotta smile a bit. It's Friday!
Personal attacks? Where? I don't think I've once make a personal slur against you or anyone else on this board. I've certainly described some of your opinions as 'absurd', 'arrogant' or 'ridiculous' but that's hardly the same thing. The post today was about people trying to move away from their ideologies, and that was hardly a personal attack. Play fair dude.
Yeah it's Friday. I'm off to London tonight so will be unable to continue our tête à tête. Hopefully the English won't be too hostile to my country's recent rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, eh?
If you categorize the Human Rights Foundation as a mouthpiece and funded by neoconservatives, I could very much well say that Human Rights Watch is a biased organization funded by lefties. Have you checked their list of donors and what causes they support? Spare me the objectivity shock.
In an alternative reality, a quick look at the Human Rights Watch page for the Americas has critical reports on the United States, Venezuela, Columbia, Nicaragua and that bastion of right-wing arrogance, Canada. So comparing that to HRF, which only criticises left-wing governments, there is a very clear and factual difference in objectivity.
Really Anon, this is a poor attempt to misconstrue the facts. Such simple dishonest commentating is not fooling anyone.
It is you who are misconstruing the facts by calling the Human Rights Foundation as a deplorable and despicable group. That's a personal opinion. Their report I referred to is a fact.
Now, to be fair with HRW, it has been attacked by all sides as being biased. Perception or fact?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
Enjoy London. I wouldn't worry about the Brits and the London Treaty, at least during the weekend. They're more worried about European Cup football and what they're going to drink.
Go Germany!
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
According to the MAS, two random guys walking in Sta Cruz with a rifle equals a conspiracy to kill Evo.
Bowsie:
How's the craic where you are? Went to UCG in 1991. Was in a complete blackout most of rag week.
Anon 1:15's wild claim of randomness is a Norman-like typical reactionary's deceptive and boldly false declaration. It is designed mislead the reader and to disguise the probable cause basis of an arrest regarding an alleged thwarted assassination attempt.
Minutes before Evo arrives, two UCJ members (one extremely tattooed, with gang-style script in English saying "HARD BODY") are arrested entering Cinecentro (a movie complex), the tallest building with the closest view of El Trompillo airport where Evo would arrive. They were entering the movie complex, fully armed, with a specially modified Mauser (a German war rifle) with a telescopic viewfinder and 300 cartridges. Their defense: they were going hunting.
Yeah, right, in urban Santa Cruz, "hunting"... for Evo?
The foiled attempt to assassinate Evo reveals the significance of the 500 rounds of .45 ammo that Goldberg's staff sought to smuggle into Bolivia.
Had the US Mission's smuggler bought the ammo in an authorized retail outlet or if the ammo was declared to customs when it was brought in, it would be duly noted and be traceable. Whereas the value of smuggling in ammo-for assassination or murder schemes-lies in being less traceable than ammo legitimately interned in Bolivia and purchased for legitimate reasons.
Jim, relax, you're a little old for this kind of stress.
You're publicly backing up the bolivian government and therefore you fall behind a number of writers that are not considered reporters anymore.
Grindi0,
you are such a boring dork!
The .45 rounds were for a hand gun dufus
Dyn-0-Mite first at the embassy now at Yacuiba!
http://www.la-razon.com/versiones/20080622_006311/nota_249_619058.htm
It is you who are misconstruing the facts by calling the Human Rights Foundation as a deplorable and despicable group. That's a personal opinion. Their report I referred to is a fact.
How can expressing a personal opinion be "misconstruing the facts"? It was quite obvious an opinion, as to call something despicable is by nature a subjective comment. If you read my original quote, I expressly stated that their (HRF) report on community justice was by-and-large accurate. Take a little time to digest my comments before you attack them unfairly.
Now, to be fair with HRW, it has been attacked by all sides as being biased. Perception or fact?
Yeah to be honest I didn't know that much about HRW and just did a quick google at the time. If I'd looked a little bit more into I might have seen they're not some shining light, but they are reasonably legitimate if not a little political. However, they are reasonably balanced, and have highlighted problems on all sides of the political and power spectrum. So to compare them to HRF, which exclusively highlights problems of left-wing societies and presumely do so on a purely political basis, is to distort the reality a bit. HRW are by-and-large a human rights group with a bit of ideology behind them, HRF are a purely political group with a fig-leaf of human rights' pretensions. A classic neo-conservative ploy.
And Anon, simply because HRW has been attacked on all sides does not suggest either side are equal. An attack is only as strong as the logic behind it. Something sadly lacking in the neo-conservative and far-left approach we commonly see on this board. I notice you employ a "we may be bad but the other side is just as bad" approach, common in neo-conservative quaters (i.e. when you compared operation condor to co-operation between Bolivia and Venezuela or HRW to HRF). But no such equivalency exists, it's a poor and slightly dishonest way of making an argument.
Bowsie:
How's the craic where you are? Went to UCG in 1991. Was in a complete blackout most of rag week.
galloglass: That's great, Galway is a lovely city. You'll find it's a lot more touristy these days.
Things are fine here, there's a big drama over the No vote to the Lisbon Treaty for closer integration with Europe. Inevitably I guess it will be sorted out and we will pass the treaty one way or another.
But Ireland's a very different country from when you went to college, as I'm sure you know. Dublin is like a different world, a lot more cosmopolitan than 17 years ago. I never thought I would use that word to describe my city!
Are you in the States or South America or where?
E-G, do you honestly believe the B-S you write, or are you just trying to get a rise out of us? If you want untraceable ammo, you re-load!!! Used casings, generic rounds, do it in your house or have a friend do it. Oh, b-t-w, hand-loading is still more accurate than buying off the shelf. Really, try some research. Now I'm off to the news sites to find out what all this assassination rubbish is about.
Bowsie said...Take a little time to digest my comments before you attack them unfairly.
[burp]
There. Well digested.
I stand by my statements about the HRF. Your belief that the HRF is some kind of political front run by neoconservatives is a matter of opinion, not a fact. (Unless you can prove otherwise, as I always say) The important issue here is that its report about Bolivia was fair, something even you admitted.
By the way, I don't know where you got it that I compared Operation Condor and the Bolivian-Venezuelan current relationship. I never even brought up the subject.
Another week, another referendum, another opportunity to see Morales bite the dust.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Norman wrote that he is "off to the news sites to find out what all this assassination rubbish is about".
Crickets chirp.
Apparently, thee Santa Cruz news sites acted in concert to keep that story away from the public (since it was difficult to spin). They pulled a black-out on that story. However, it is everywhere else. From the associated press:
Assassination plot suspected in Bolivia
June 20, 2008
LA PAZ, Bolivia --Bolivian officials said Friday they have arrested two men who may have planned to kill President Evo Morales. But a local prosecutor quickly released them.
Police said the two were arrested Thursday at the El Trompillo airport in the eastern city of Santa Cruz minutes before Morales was scheduled to arrive. They said one of the suspects carried a rifle and rounds of ammunition.
"The government has well-founded reasons to believe this involves an attempted assassination," said Sacha Llorenti, deputy minister of social movements, at a news conference.
But the two had already gone free before Llorenti spoke. The Santa Cruz prosecutor's office released the men late Thursday for lack of evidence they had committed a crime, said Ruben Gamarra, vice minister of the interior.
"The prosecutor's decision is lamentable because one of them was carrying a Mauser rifle with a telescopic sight," he said.
The Interior Ministry, in charge of security, said the two men were members of a conservative Santa Cruz youth group that has led protests against Morales' leftist policies.
Relatively wealthy Santa Cruz has been a center of opposition to Bolivia's first Indian president and the region's leaders are trying to win greater autonomy from the national government.
Morales' visit to the region went on as scheduled, but with heavy security.
EG:
You're a complete dork. I saw these two guys interviewed. One is a tatoo artist and would probably be more comfortable at a Rage against the Machine concert than a UJC gathering. They have no link to the UJC, which by the way, I'm no fan of. The Mauser is about 80 years old, the scope was attached as the housing was broken, they were actually picked up about 2 miles from CineCenter, while putting the gun into storage, the cops let them go because there was no crime committed, the Chief of Police and Prosecutor said that if Rada has proof, show us, and Saturday the government asked for more time to investigate the "crime". Rada invented all the rest out of whole cloth and made himself look like an idiot once again.
Correction: Scope wasn't attached.
I stand by my statements about the HRF. Your belief that the HRF is some kind of political front run by neoconservatives is a matter of opinion, not a fact. (Unless you can prove otherwise, as I always say)
But Anon, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, didn't my last statement (the one I asked you to digest to which you responded with hilarious aplomb) state quite categorically that it was my opinion, and not fact. So are you not reading my comments or are you simply misrepresenting my opinions on purpose?
Also, and I think I've got to stop responding to your comments of this nature, aren't you indulging in ad-hominem attacks? I've stated my belief that HRF are political because of three reasons. (1) They are run by the son of a corrupt right-wing Venezuelan businessman aggressive to Chavez. (2) They say they are a human-rights group for the Americas but fail to report on human-rights violations by non-left-wing governments. (3) They make a big fuss about how they are funded yet use byzantine accounting methods to hide where that funding comes from. I never said it was a fact, I said it was my opinion based on those facts. The kind of proof you are looking for doesn't only exists in a controlled scientific environment.
By the way, I don't know where you got it that I compared Operation Condor and the Bolivian-Venezuelan current relationship. I never even brought up the subject.
Well then you have a short-term memory. You brought it up in the last thread. Although you mentioned American involvement in Bolivia during the cold-war (not Operation Condor explicitly, but surely this is implicit), then you compared it to Venezuela and Bolivia today (I've supplied your quote below).
That Bolivia was a pawn (as many other countries) in Cold War politics is undeniable. It continues to be the stage of an ideological battle. However, don't pretend that it's only the big bad US who has ever tried to exert its influence in Bolivia. The Soviets and Cubans have done so blatantly, and now even much more the Venezuelans.
Pawn in Cold-War politics refers to Condor right? Because that was the most significant involvement of the US in that time. I'll hold my breath for your direct response and look forward to another one of your "not enough proof" ad-hominem efforts that seem to please you so much.
Anyhow, I'm getting tired of myself here so I think I'll have a break responding to your posts. But surely will be back with a vengeance once I get a bit bored, and/or you stop trying to misrepresent people with cheap parlour tricks.
Galloglass,
Go easy on the glasses of Gallo.
That you watched the dog and pony show put on after they changed their stories...err, I mean after you saw those two guys interviewed, means nothing.
Were they under an oath? Were they cross-examined? No? I did not think so. Their current self-serving stories contradict their prior statements taken by the authorities and the facts as presented by the authorities. I have pasted it here for you (what is key is the issue of cinecentro being the locus and their claim that they were going hunting:
Junior Fernando Vaca Méndez (20) y Carlos Giovani Domínguez (34) fueron arrestados a las 13.30 del jueves 19 en la calle La Guardia, zona del mercado La Ramada, según Obleas. Empero, el viceministro de Régimen Interior, Rubén Gamarra; el viceministro de Coordinación con los Movimientos Sociales, Sacha Llorenti, y el ministro de Gobierno, Alfredo Rada, coincidieron en que se trata de dos integrantes de la Unión Juvenil Cruceñista (UJC), que fueron aprehendidos cerca del aeropuerto El Trompillo a punto de ingresar en el Cine Center, desde donde tenían planificado asesinar al Mandatario, quien ese día llegó a la urbe cruceña y pasó a un acto en la localidad de El Bisito.
Los funcionarios gubernamentales indicaron que detrás del hecho están las autoridades cívicas y departamentales que, supuestamente, tienen un plan para desestabilizar al Gobierno. Rada dijo: “Felicito el desempeño de la Policía en la captura de estos dos sujetos, pero el fiscal actuó de manera irresponsable y negligente al dejarlos en libertad”.
El fiscal del caso, Willan Torres, señaló que el informe policial indica que fueron arrestados por inmediaciones de La Ramada y que la denuncia no menciona fines conspirativos. Añadió que los sospechosos están citados para hoy.
Domínguez, uno de los acusados, dijo que es artista y que el arma la utilizaba para cazar.
Jordi Chaparro, ejecutivo del Cine Center, explicó que el recinto cuenta con 22 cámaras de video y que es difícil que algún extraño suba a la terraza sin ser visto.
On Norman's obsession to cover up the ammo smuggled in Goldberg's staff, Norman may know a lot about ammo, given his history of violence as a marine whereas E.G. is a lover not a fighter. Thus, Norman can spin a web of deceitful minutiae that confuses a layperson. However, what is key is that Norman NEVER denies or explains why the munitions were being smuggled.
One should never lose sight of the fact that Republicans are a culture of corruption wherein Norman is not their first to try to cover up arms trafficking and/or smuggling under cover of law by a Bushie. See story from today's New York Times:
June 24, 2008
American Envoy Is Linked to Arms Deal Cover-Up
By ERIC SCHMITT
"WASHINGTON — An American ambassador helped cover up the illegal Chinese origins of ammunition that a Pentagon contractor bought to supply Afghan security forces, according to testimony gathered by Congressional investigators..."
E-G, you were right, of course. I found no additional references to the incident since it was initially reported on 20 June, and apparently neither did you. Even ABI dropped it. As to the extract you pasted, you do know of course that La Ramada and la calle La Guardia are more than 15 blocks (over a kilometer) from the Cine Center? Cine Center is probably another kilometer or more from El Trompillo's military ramp where I expect Morales would deplane. Are there any details on the Mauser our would-be assasins would use for the shot? Was it one of the antiques that the Poncho Rojos carry? Getting the weapon into Cine Center in the first place would be a trick, then good luck with the 1000-meter shot. You won't get many off with a bolt-action rifle.
You are being intellectually dishonest pursuing this. Look at the facts reasonably. Poor equipment for an assassination, poor location, no mention of suspects qualifications by anyone to make a kilometer plus shot, and oh b-t-w, wind speeds that day were 20 mph gusting to 30. But you're the weapons expert.
...Just read your latest post; Marine is capitalized, and of course I don't deny established facts; that's your forte.
Correction: the incident was initially reported 19 June. E-G apparently didn't want anyone to read the full article he drew his extract from as he took it completely out of context. The article which amply refutes the whole "plot" can be found at http://www.laprensa.com.bo/noticias/21-06-08/21_06_08_poli7.php
Bowsie, no matter how much I down the Pepto Bismol to induce a gas free digestion of your comments, I only succeed in contributing to global warming and urinating pink.
First, when I ask you to present facts -- as with the US Embassy being a CIA listening post and that the CIA is an active participant in the cocaine trade -- your only evidence are sources whose books you haven't read and don't know if they have clearances to sensitive information, and unsubstantiated accusations against the CIA 2 or 3 decades old, respectively. Not exactly a smoking gun. All hat and no cattle. Meaning, "that dog don't hunt."
Second, your beef with the HRW is that it's run by a "corrupt right wing businessman" and is involved in "byzantine accounting methods" (oh, so we are accountants now? -- and I'm sure you don't like how that saintly Tibetan monk board member dresses, either). Again, I'm waiting for your factual evidence that this guy (does he have a name?) is a "corrupt right wing businessman." Being anti-Chavez wouldn't exactly hold in a court of law. By the way, maybe HRF concentrates on left-wing governments because left-wing governments are those who violate human rights the most.
Third -- and this is one of the problems with your comments -- is that you freely "imply" what others say even though it's not what they meant. At no time was I talking about Operation Condor when referring to the US and Bolivia and the Cold War. I was referring to the 1960s, the years of the Che Guevara debacle. Operation Condor started in 1974 or 75, I believe.
As Joe Friday from the TV show "Dragnet" would say, "Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts."
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
PS What does ad hominem mean?
I cut and pasted the COMPLETE FIRST FIVE paragraphs of the referenced article.
Norman's wild claims are:
1) those five paragraphs, the complete first part of the article were an "extract"; and
2)"[I] took it completely out of context".
Summarized, the whole thread on this issue shows that there are few articles on what occurred and there are conflicting versions of the facts.
As standard operating procedure, if a certain issue is significant to the reader, they should not just accept the wild claims being made in the comments sections. Just request links to actual articles, read them and form your opinions regarding what was stated instead of what Norman and his ilk claims was said, then post informed comments instead of perpetuating misinformed reactions or keeping them to yourself.
In terms of this commentator's responses, they are not meant to be examples of vituperation. They are intended to be aggressive advocacy to balance the increased vitriol expressed by the Republicans or neo-fascists, both of whose conduct show themselves to be collectively evil groups leading Bolivia to a bloody civil war wherein young men will die because of the avarice of old men. Similar to Iraq, it will all be for the oil (natural gas and natural resources) that should be used to promote education, build infrascture, increase economic opportunity and lead to justice and equality for all Bolivians.
El Grindio said...
I cut and pasted the COMPLETE FIRST FIVE paragraphs of the referenced article.
Really? Actually E-G, you appear to have missed the first paragraph. Here it is...
Un día después de la captura en Santa Cruz de dos jóvenes con un fusil Máuser reformado y con mira telescópica, el Gobierno utilizó su “artillería” ministerial para persuadir a la opinión pública nacional e internacional de que los sindicados pretendían atentar contra la vida del presidente Evo Morales. Sin embargo, la Policía desmintió tal extremo por intermedio del comandante Wilge Obleas. (Emhpasis added).
Please don't accept my "wild" claims... follow the link that I included above (and you omitted) and decide for yourself. Now would you care to refute some of the substance? They were arrested over 1.5 kilometers from the CineCenter. The CineCenter is too far for a decent shot. The weapon was inadequate to the task. Winds were 20 to 30 miles per hour, as is normal for this time of the year in Santa Cruz. The scope was not attached to the weapon and could not be attached... the mount was broken. Which of these wild claims do you disagree with? How about just admitting once in a while that you may have been mistaken.
BTW, two points on "vituperation". I had to look it up... 1. sustained and bitter railing and condemnation. 2. abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure. e.g. "...Republicans or neo-fascists, both of whose conduct show themselves to be collectively evil groups leading Bolivia to a bloody civil war wherein young men will die because of the avarice of old men."
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