Monday, July 14, 2008

The Romance of Elections

Elections here. Elections there.

On August 10 Bolivians will return to the polls once again. Some will go to fight for Evo and others to get rid of him. Some will go just because the law obligates them to. In the U.S., voters have been gripped by election season for more than a year and the final vote is still four months away.

Here and there the romance of elections is in the air. "If we just win the vote everything will change." That's the romance, be it in Spanish or English. I am a proponent of voting. Since I turned 18 I've done it with every legal opportunity offered. Voting matters because who gets elected matters. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. Need an example? I have no doubt that if Al Gore had been elected in 2000 that the U.S. would not have invaded Iraq. It is not a marginal difference.

But anyone, in the U.S., Bolivia, or anywhere else, who thinks that winning elections is all it takes to change things is fooling themselves as well. Winning the vote is just the start. In Bolivia and the U.S. right now, that is a lesson worth taking seriously.

Bolivia

Let us take Bolivia.

Evo's election in 2005 was full of romance, as much abroad as here. The first indigenous President of the hemisphere's most indigenous nation. The ritual at Tiwanaku. Whipalas in the air. La Paz full of heads of state and dignitaries. "Imagine, a campesino is going to be President!" a taxi driver said to me with such pride.

Lesson one about winning elections: what winning buys you is the official authority of the office, which is a good deal of power to be sure. But in a pluralistic, democratic society where others feel differently, those leaders are still in a power-sharing arrangement with those who oppose them – like it or not.

Bolivia's left, when it was out of power, made that point quite clearly to those in power, by making the nation ungovernable. Did Evo and MAS really expect their natural adversaries to roll over and do different? Did Evo and MAS have a strategy in hand to either deal with or isolate those adversaries? Not one that is easy to spot.

Like it or not, the opposition in Bolivia has brought the 'Evo revolution' if you wish to call it that, to a practical standstill.

There is a certain delusional nostalgia in Bolivia's return to the polls next month. Even if Evo holds on to the 54% he won that heady December two and a half years ago, does that mean that suddenly his opponents will step aside and let him carry on with, for example, the new Constitution? Don't bet your morning Saltena on it. And what if MAS succeeds in ousting some its adversaries among the state Governors, like Manfred Reyes Villa? Will that suddenly neuter his opponents? No, quite the opposite. It will embolden the opposition in Cochabamba into the streets and the violence certain to follows will be a disaster for Bolivia and will only make the Morales government weaker, not stronger.

Making change in Bolivia is far more complicated than winning elections.

The U.S.A.

Now lets look north. There is so much to be inspired about in this year's U.S. Presidential Election. A black man promising change may well be the next occupant of the Oval Office. Thousands of young people of all colors have taken to electoral politics as a vehicle for change. Millions of people making small donations have done more to change the face of campaign financing than anything political reformers have achieved in twenty years (I say this as a former advocate with Common Cause).

But again the cardinal rule of politics. Winning the vote is a start but it is just the start. Turning victory at the polls into real change is complicated and fails as often as it succeeds.

Here is an inside secret about U.S. politics, one I learned by working for and around politicians for five years and almost becoming one myself. Politicians – be they in U.S. or Bolivian – are mathematicians. They are constantly doing political math equations in their head.

"If I do this, who will I make happy and who will I piss off? How much importance do I assign to the ones who are made angry? How much will they hurt me?"

They do this, left and right, in the name of maintaining the authority that they have fought so hard to secure.

Making change through the political system is about affecting the math. It is about affecting the equations in politicians' heads. Here are two examples:

President Bush was able to invade Iraq not just because he had the authority as President to do so, but because his administration willfully manipulated the facts to turn the public's post 9/11 fears into a political math in which even supposedly "liberal Democrats" felt politically compelled to vote for war.

President Clinton (and Hillary) thought that his 1992 win at the polls gave them the authority to win national health care reform, but they failed miserably at creating the political math for reform, and hence lost badly.

What will this mean for 'progressives' if Senator Obama wins? The post-primaries vigil over "Is he moving right?" has already begun. Last week the nominee-to-be voted to give immunity to communications companies that helped President Bush's illegal wiretapping adventures.

Be ready. Whatever disappointment we hear from idealistic Obama supporters now will be far louder if he wins and the real compromises begin. You want to make a difference? Focus not only on the election (and that matters a lot) but the math afterwards as well.

The speed with which Obama pulls the U.S. out or Iraq (or that President McCain does not) will depend on whether citizens in the U.S. continue their organizing work to make the case. So it will be as well on energy policy, health care reform and the other front burner issues for whoever is elected.

And here is where politics are much the same be they in Bolivia or the U.S. August 10 in one place, November 4 in the other. Voters in both places will go the polls and register their sentiments about who should and who should not have authority in their country.

Each vote will set the stage, but the play that comes afterwards will depends on how the victors and the citizens who back them find a way to keep their opponents from bringing the whole thing to a stop before it starts.

96 Comments:

Anonymous El Grindio said...

Math this (courtesy of Jose Lanza's post on the Bolivia llajta list which indicates the six Evo-haters will be packing their bags:

PREFECTOS BOLIVIANOS: REVOCATORIO CASI TOTAL

La Organizacion Sondeos (Cochabamba) , junto a las encuestadora Tiawanaku (La Paz) han realizado 4500 entrevistas callejeras y telefonicas a ciudadanos bolivianos de nueve departamentos, desde el dia 1 al 7 de julio del presente año, tomando el 50% de los pobladores del area rural y el 50% del area urbana; con el fin de obtener una imagen sobre la intencion de voto de la ciudadania para los ocho prefecturas en juego, frente al revocatorio del 10 de agosto proximo, donde se dirimira la permanencia o salida de las nueve autoridades prefecturales y del binomio presidencial.

La Ley sobre Revocatorio de Mandatos en Bolivia, exije que para quitar el puesto a una autoridad elegida por voto popular, el NO a su gestión debe obtener un porcentaje superior a la cantidad de votos que obtuvo al asumir su mandato. De esta manera, no es lo mismo lo que ese necesita para revocar un mandato que otro. Los resultados de del trabajo de ambas encuestadoras, arrojan la siguiente intencion de voto:

LA PAZ (1000 personas): NO 64%, SI 28% Y NS/NC 8% - el NO necesita un 38%

COCHABAMBA (500 personas): NO 57%, SI 32% Y NS/NC 11% - el NO necesita un 48%

SANTA CRUZ (1000 personas): NO 53%, SÍ 42% Y NS/NC 5% - el NO necesita un 48%

PANDO (250 personas): NO 61%, SÍ 22% Y NS/NC 17% - el NO necesita un 49%

BENI (250 personas): NO 48%, SÍ 50% Y NS/NC 2% - el NO necesita un 45%

ORURO (500 personas): NO 37%, SÍ 54% Y NS/NC 9% - el NO necesita un 41%

POTOSÍ (500 personas): NO 35%, SÍ 62% Y NS/NC 3% - el NO necesita un 41%

TARIJA (500 peronas): NO 67%, SÍ 24% Y NS/NC 9% - el NO necesita un 46%

Segun estos datos, 6 de los ocho prefectos en juego, perderan sus cargos.

Los prefectos de Oruro y Potosi mantendrán su cargo, pero con esfuerzo; ya que aunque son del mismo partido que Evo Morales (MAS), hay una pequeña franja de votantes que apoya a Evo, pero no a ellos.

2:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can you translate? This is a post for those who speak the language of Shakespeare only.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

PS Good comment, Jim, although the same "Bush lied, bla, bla" mantra is getting old, not to mention your "what if" should (gag) the Goracle had been elected president. Plus, Obama doesn't send a tingle up my leg as he apprarently seems to others.

Brrrrrrrrr!

2:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The vote will not solve anything, all it has accomplish is to buy time for each side to plant itself even more firmly in their heels. The MAS has stuffed the electorate with venezuelan-funded ghost voters, and the "civicos" are passing using a legislature full of unelected officials to pass legislation to protect their interest.

After all is said and done, Bolivia will only be further polarized, inflation will still flirt with 20%, foreign investment will not come, gas production will continue to dwindle, and Evo is running out of things to nationalize in order to keep the circus going. After nationalizing auto chop shops, there's not much left.

The only ones that benefit from these shennanigans are the political class.

2:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is right, or left as you want. Obama may want to change, but as we know the real power of the rightist mafia that rules US and the world would not allow to change much.
Evo is having problems because of the same reason, the right has money, connections to the mafia, and Evo is trying hard to do something good for Bolivia's poor, but with the right supported by the same mafia that controls US how can we ever have real democracy?

Croats are the Beni's mafia neonazi jews
Carina is the town's whore

3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so now we are going to start to blame the masons? or is the illuminati? Lion's Club or the Rotatarians??? Phi Beta Kappains?? I preffer to lay the blame to those five individuals that are skull&bones members as well as Knights of Malta.

there is no right wing conspiracy, simply investors seeking the highest possible return for the lowest risk possible. capital is a very scarce commodity and most evil transnacionals are a bad quarter away from bankrupcy.

AND, while Evo MIGHT be trying to help Boivia's poor, his economic measures miss the mark. Nationalizations and other threats are not going to help. Giving money away as bonuses is also not going help. Neither is going around giving away venezuelan checks w/o any supervision. Having the state as the economy's main engine is economic suicide. These actions, while yes are well intentioned, are not going to help the poor.

You wanna help the poor? give them access to education, health and business opportunities. Just like passing a "job security law" is the surest way to ensure higher unemployment ratesl, giving away money is problably the surest way to ensure they'll stay poor.

3:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bolivia's former ruling Right is losing. They cannot win fair and square at the ballot box and they know it. So instead they will opt for the route of violence, a coup de'etat.

Why Jim clearly foresees this possibility without simultaneously denouncing such a departure from democratic means is just beyond me. Does he not know what happened to Allende in '73? Speak up Jim, you have the platform!

3:38 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Anon 3:35PM:
Correct that "access to education, health and business opportunities" are germane to "help the poor" help themselves. But do not forget that for Bolivia, it is also important to focus on building infrastructure (which Evo is doing).
Respectfully disagree About "giving away money". I think you forgot its value in terms of social control.
Agree that "job security law" can be counterproductive. As to grants, consider the US and its federal and state study grants or the GI Bill that financed returning WWII veterans' educations and help build the nation. Are US study grants not like the "Jacinto Pinto" grants in that Bolivia's need is great on a fundamental level (primary education so the population has at least rudimentary skills that can be built upon)?

Without renegotiating Bolivia's cut as to natural resources, there would not have been budget surpluses or debt repayment. Nor would Evo have the means to pay for the infrastructure he is building nor the Jacinto Pinto grants that generally mean the difference between children staying in school and having to work to help their families survive.

What counter plan to Evo's are you offering that provides a comparative advantage, better net benefit or avoids the disadvantages of that which has been cobbled together by Evo?

4:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regardless of which party you prefer in Bolivian politics, and regardless of which politicians you want to win or lose in the upcoming referendums, it is important to keep in mind that these elections are not stipulated by any law in the country. This constant willingness to change the rules of the political game after it is started cannot be tolerated.

Whether or not we like it, Evo was elected in December of 2005 for a five year term. Manfred was also elected for his term. So was Ruben Costas. Terms of elected officials have start and end dates. In order for there to bestability in Bolivia, the entire society must start to respect the mandate of their politicans and not overthrow them prematurely via street protests nor via referendums.

Once this basic fact of democracy is understood, stability will come, there won't be any more paros ni huelgas, foreign investment will start to flow in, and inflation will come under control.

4:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 4.43

Is your comment supposed to be a joke? The recall referendums are lawful under the acting constitution as called for by act of Congress.

4:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 4:42,


Allow me to quote Homer Simpson: "That's for the courts to decide!!"

ooops there is Constitutional Tribunal....so I guess anything goes, it is Bolivia after all. I don't think there has been anything kosher going on in Bolivia since they moved the CA to the military garrison.

5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is precisely the point.

You cannot change the rules of the game as you go along.

Once a politician is elected, the constitution that you cite indicates when he/she shall step down from office.

Any referendums or any other wacky rule changes should apply for the following mandate.

5:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:43 (the first one) you almost got it right. But should a free people have to put up for 5 years, with a dictator want-a-be with a 4th grade education and a chip on his shoulder? Who came to power by starting riots in the street and getting people killed? Who is destroying the economy. Should honest people have to put up with this for 5 years? This is for Jim. Jim, you are a peice of work! Of course if Gore were president there would not have been an Iraq war. Nor would he have done anything about Afganistan. There would have been 9/11, there would have been the 1st twin towers bombing, Iraq would have bought yellow cake, Iraq would still bully it's neighbors and Sadam would continue to murder his people and send to the wifes the mulated bodies of their husbands and Iraq would still rape and tortue its people. But your right, Gore would have done nothing, just like Clinton did nothing. Also for your info, Obama will not win the election. He is to radical. He will carry San Francisco.

5:37 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Anon 3:38 wrote:"Bolivia's former ruling Right is losing. They cannot win fair and square at the ballot box and they know it. So instead they will opt for the route of violence, a coup de'etat."

Don't know if they have support within the current military regime for a "coup de'etat".

But, you are correct that privileged elites-throughout Bolivia-want to "turn back the clock" to Bolivia’s oligarchic status quo wherein Bolivia functioned as their personal bank/ “mamadera”. They are desperate to stop the dramatic ascendancy of Bolivia’s formerly disenfranchised rural and indigenous class. They refuse to allow any concessions that deny them their accustomed privileges of race-based power and this has Bolivia at the brink of civil war.

This brinksmanship will likely cross the threshold of civil war when the constitution by elected representatives clashes with the “autonomia constitutions” drafted by the elites’ designated “representatives” .

Will Evo make the same mistakes as Hernan Siles, during Siles’ presidency, and try to consolidate the democracy by appeasing or acquiescing to the elites? Despite the ever-increasing seditious acts of the Media Luna, particularly by the civicos, its media and their shock troops the UCJ? Or will he pass a Bolivian-style Patriot Act and take necessary repressive measures to implement Bolvivia’s lawful constitution? If so, it will only breed further discontent in the Media Luna that will lead to exciting times if the social movements in western Bolivia take matters into their own hands. Probably too hot of a topic for Jim to discuss.

5:57 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

About Anon 5:37's comment about Evo "...is destroying the economy".

How about some evidence that refutes the following posted on a prior page of this blog where Franco and another discussed your false claim:

"analysis regarding Bolivia by Price Waterhouse Coopers (the international accounting firm):

"2007 was a year of contrasts for the Bolivian economy, on the positive side there were record levels of exports and net international reserves combined with a reduction of 57% in the external debt. Furthermore for the third year running there was a budget surplus and continued growth (4.2% in 2007). As a result of this situation the local currency revalued against the US dollar for the second year running, in 2007 by 4.48%."

http://www.pwc.com/bo/spa/pdf/highlights_eng.pdf

The "civicos", former members of the political elites that governed Bolivia, never produced such positive results, for Bolivia or for Santa Cruz.

6:06 PM  
OpenID DV said...

yes, anon 5:37, I would say that they do have to put up with him. Just as MAS needs to come to terms with the fact that there is an opposition and you have to work with them on issues that can be passed.

Everyone thinks that they represent the side of good and the other side is obviously wrong. Mature people learn that just because someone holds an opposing view does not mean they are enemies of the nation. The democratic process when space is made for the minority as well as the majority really is what creates meaningful change. Can you imagine what would happen to a constitution that could be changed with only a 50% +1 margin? You'd end up 'refounding' the country every election. I may sound unrealistic but actually it seems to me to be only practical.

6:15 PM  
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7:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The "positives" about Bolivia doesn't mask that its economic foundation is in tatters. Foreign investment way down, production waay down, law and order waaay down, unemployment waaaay down, and Cuchi-Cuchi worshiper wearing out his kneepads begging for debt reduction waaaaay down. The only thing increasing is unemployment, inflation, interest rates, cocaine production, people wanting to leave the country, and Cuchi-Cuchi worshiper's stupidity.

Anon 5:37, by the way, Saddam Hussein did buy yellowcake. Lots of it. LA Times states:

"The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein’s nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached this Canadian port Saturday, completing a secret U.S. operation that included an airlift from Baghdad and a voyage across two oceans.

The removal of about 550 tons of “yellowcake” — the seed material for high-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Hussein’s nuclear legacy."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-cake6-2008jul06,0,4296828.story

It seems the presence of the yellow cake, which was not concentrated enough to make a bomb but could be used to make a “dirty bomb” was known to the US government and US Army and even the UN, but its presence was not publicized for fear that it would be looted.

So the irony is that, to keep the presence secret from local thugs associated with terrorists until the huge amount of partially enriched uranium could be removed, the antiwar left was allowed to repeat its lies that it didn’t exist at all.

Bush will be vindicated after all.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It seems the presence of the yellow cake, which was not concentrated enough to make a bomb but could be used to make a “dirty bomb” was known to the US government and US Army and even the UN, but its presence was not publicized for fear that it would be looted...Bush will be vindicated after all"

Genius,

Pakistan the US “ally” has a real capability that trumps the “preemptive action” the world’s policeman used as an excuse to create the US’s present political/economic reality.

Its other allies -Saudi Arabia, etc- are funding “madrasas” in places like Afghanistan, the world’s biggest opium producer. Those places of learning educate Muslims with the Saudi brand of Islam, Wahabism, and also serve as a kind of ‘safety valve’ where disaffected young Saudis learn to express their anger –if you know what I mean. It is a tragic and sad fact but it seems to me that the Saudi royals are plenty happy to see their young men ‘venting’ in non Saudi cities.

Interventionist policies do not work, Central America is a case and point. Just this week the Guatemalan prosecutor of the murder of three Salvadoran politicians last year was shot dead at the purported behest of “drug gangs”. Guatemala, a country in which a ‘democratic battle’ against communism took place back in the 80’s is now the country with the highest murder rate in Central America.

What’s going to happen when the hundreds of thousands of young men that fought in Iraq come back? Many of the ones that have returned are having a terrible time adjusting to society. http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=220532

By the way, I don’t think you volunteered to fight in this latest ‘democratic battle’, you were born warped.

11:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't argue with that fact.

That I'm a genius, that is.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina.

11:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't imagine someone would argue for Morales' regime as being a benefit to the countries economy.
Es muy facil para gente que vive muy comoda en el extranjero decir que la economia esta mejor debajo de Morales. Para nosotros que no somos ni campesinos ni oligarcas nuestra realidad economica a empeorado.
Es un mal entendido de muchos que fue el campesino que llevo a Evo a la presidencia. La realidad es que la clase media es la que llevo Evo al palacio quemado. Y es la misma clase que mas a sufrido debajo de Evo y que a perdido toda ilusion de un futuro mejor.
Evo no esta capacitado para gobernar a nuestro pais, es un fracaso completo, sigue con esa retrasada mentalidad de dirigente cocalero. Los lideros de la media luna son la misma basura de siempre, y solo quieren proteger sus intereses.
En fin nuestro pais no tiene un buen futuro. Solo queda que nuestros hijos escapen al exterior para tener una vida con oportunidades. No merecen luchar y gastar sus vidas en este pais destinado al fracaso.

Evo/Linera = Costas/Marinkovic

Lo que falta a Bolivia es un lider verdadero. Estos cuatro son payasos del mismo circo. Resentidos, corruptos, racistas, ignorantes de primera.

12:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon (aka Beni is...) says: "It seems the presence of the yellow cake, which was not concentrated enough to make a bomb but could be used to make a “dirty bomb” was known to the US government and US Army and even the UN, but its presence was not publicized for fear that it would be looted.

So the irony is that, to keep the presence secret from local thugs associated with terrorists until the huge amount of partially enriched uranium could be removed, the antiwar left was allowed to repeat its lies that it didn’t exist at all.

Bush will be vindicated after all. "

OK, I realise you are the type of man for which events in the real world make no difference to your opinion however here is a rebuttal to this distortion.

The alleged "Yellow Cake" sale from Niger that got the White House into so much trouble was of a purity to be used in a nuclear weapons program.

The decommissioned "Yellow Cake" in this article is from Iraq's Nuclear Energy program which was defunct from the early eighties when Israel bombed the plant. It was never, ever, ever used in any weapons program planned or executed. It never had the capability to be used in a nuclear weapon nor is there any evidence of any kind that it would be used in a dirty bomb. Not even the most right-wing neoconservatives have suggested otherwise, because it simply isn't so.

Even after the disaster to Iraq, the embarrassment of the United States' reputation going from world superpower to a military that cannot even defeat a rag-bag insurgency, even after the supposed WMD theory has been so discredited it wouldn't be let into a methadone clinic, this complete moron continues to smugly live in his own world.

The he tries to impose his utterly pathetic world view on the rest of us.

12:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, testy, aren't we? I think I struck a sensitive lefty nerve over there.

Funny how the article clearly mentions "Saddam Hussein's nuclear program." Wait -- there's no "alleged" stuck somewhere there. Hmm.

Yeah, I'm sure that 550 tons of that cute yellow powder weren't intended for any weapons program. Maybe it was to be used as sprinkles on birthday cakes...for those pesky Kurds.

Ah, Saddam, that joker! Making the whole world believe otherwise.

Your rant absolutely does not disprove that your role model Saddam Hussein didn't try to start hadn't been trying to produce these deadly materials. It's better he's gone, don't you think so?

Despite your shortsightedness, Bush will be vindicated. You just can't handle the truth.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

1:47 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

From his parallel universe, in which he alone resides, Anon aka Bush "Vindicator-in-Chief" ("VIC") wrote: "It seems the presence of the yellow cake, which was not concentrated enough to make a bomb but COULD BE USED TO MAKE A “DIRTY BOMB”

LA Times wrote: 'Yellowcake alone is not considered potent enough for a "dirty bomb"'

VIC wrote: "...its presence was not publicized for fear that it would be looted...Bush will be vindicated after all".

LA Times wrote: "U.N. inspectors had documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Persian Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the senior U.S. official said."

Only in VIC's mind does non-weapons grade material that is valuable enough to be looted and whose whereabouts is known equal "weapons of mass destruction" whose secret location must be found despite the thousands of lives that must be sacrificed to do so.

Only in VIC's mind is Bush "vindicated" ...despite:
a) the generally acknowledged worse US presidency ever;
b) taking down the value of the Republican brand by association with him;
c) diminishing the US from the unipolar hegemon to what it is today as China and India rapidly gain on it; and
d) allowing North Korea to get weapons of mass destruction and nuclear bomb capability while obsessing with his "daddy issues" regarding Saddam.

I guess the Republicans in the US mission (the Dark Side's Evildoers) are really desperate these days if they have to hire nitwit VIC to be their paid hack on this blog. Let me guess, his assignment was a) "bring down" Evo by linking Beni to Katrina and b) "vindicate" Bush.

2:17 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

This is fun stuff although it pains me slightly that it may be regarded as being akin to committing cruelty to an animal. Nah, Bush's Vindicator is an admitted Bush-Republican and only the masochists among them still admit they are Bush-Republicans.

Hey Vindicator, given:
A) "Saddam Hussein's nuclear program." which you noted has 'no "alleged" stuck somewhere there'
and
B) existance of "550 tons of that cute yellow powder" (of "dirty bomb" quality according to you)
and
C) that the LA Times wrote that your 550 tons were known as to existence and whereabouts, prior to Bush I's Gulf War: "U.N. inspectors had documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Persian Gulf War."

Then since knowledge of existence and location of your 550 tons of "weapons of mass destruction" (according to your scenario) predated the first Gulf War, why didn't Bush I seize or control those 550 tons of "weapons of mass destruction" capable yellowcake so that it couldn't be "intended for any weapons program"?

Oh, wait, then it couldn't be claimed to be what it is not in your "Bush is vindicated" scheme after W's Excellent Adventure in Iraq.

2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow.

VIC. You thought about that all by yourself?

;-)

Quotes of lefties mentioning Hussein's WMDs before the liberation:

One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by: -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by: -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." -- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" -- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Plus, the US Senate in October 2002 listed 22 other reasons to liberate Iraq. You know, little things like noncompliance for the 1991 cease fire, harboring international terrorist organizations, etc. It wasn't just WMDs, baby.

So, as you see, Bush will be vindicated.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

2:54 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Self-serving politicians drank from Bush's WMD kool-aid. Yawn. So what?

In and of itself, that does not vindicate Bush nor provide cover for Bush's crimes against humanity or domestic constitutional violations.

(sound of crickets chirping) I'm still waiting for your answer. If your 550 tons of yellowcake was cause for invasion then why didn't Bush's father secure it after his Gulf War?

3:27 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

E-G, I pretty much agree with you on this one that the yellowcake does not provide justification for the 2003 invasion. You misunderstood the timeline though from what the LA Times reported. What they said was:

Tuwaitha and an adjacent research facility were well known for decades as the centerpiece of Hussein's nuclear efforts.

Translation: We knew Saddam had a nuclear research facility prior to the 1st Gulf War.

U.N. inspectors had documented and safeguarded the yellowcake,…

Translation: When UN inspectors reached the facility after the first Gulf War (since there were no UN inspectors prior to the 1st Gulf War), they inspected the facility and found the material.

…which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

The material they found had been stored in aging drums since before the war. So why didn’t Mr. Bush’s father secure the material once it was discovered? Well, my guess is because Saddam still ran the country and still dictated where the inspectors could go and what they could do. It was not for the UN inspectors or for the US to secure and eliminate the material; it was for Saddam to do. He refused to do so in violation of UN resolutions and hampered inspector’s efforts, also in violation of resolutions. When Mr. Clinton entered office, he had much less success in getting Hussein to comply with UN resolutions and appeared to eventually have stopped trying.

Now this actually did justify (legally) the intervention in Iraq since UN resolutions from 1991 (and subsequently) clearly authorized the use of force to ensure compliance. The problem is that after 9-11, after the Afghanistan invasion, after we began massing on the border of Iraq, Hussein began full compliance. That was not the time to go in; it was the time to resume inspections and enforce compliance. If Hussein again fell into non-compliance (almost a sure bet), then the US might have been able to garner international support.

It also would have been appropriate to review the UN sanctions and eliminate some of them so as to reduce the suffering in the country.

Once the invasion was begun though, we were in a difficult position. First, we should at no time come in as invaders, but rather as liberators. That went down the tubes with the rubbing of the American flag on the Saddam statue. That one incident did irreparable harm. The Abu Graib fiasco magnified that a hundred-fold. We have since slowly made progress. When I was in North Carolina last month I spoke with several Marines who had served over there. They had thoroughly positive attitudes about the mission. They related that we are absolutely making progress. They are working hand in hand with the Iraqi authorities who are steadily taking the reins. Those that I spoke to felt we will shortly be able to withdraw from Iraq in an orderly fashion.

I was over there for the 1st Gulf war. I saw what Hussein did. I have no doubt he was still working on WMDs. He had them before, he used chemical weapons in the Iraq-Iran war, he used them on his own people afterward, and he used them on us (ineffectively) in 1991. He had that yellowcake for a reason and it was not peaceful.

5:20 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Only have a moment; hope I can respond quickly. This topic is key to understanding US military intervention-in service of empire building-under the guise of promoting a type of post 9-11 Crisis Democracy in the US, Iraq, Bolivia or wherever you, the reader lives. (Disclaimer: the following is stream of consciousness writing.)

Instead of negotiating trade deals as to Iraq's oil (or Bolivia's natural resources in the future) at the World Trade Organization, Bush invaded Iraq to control its natural resources. Mission accomplished, he sent Paul Bremer to capture new markets for US interests by privatization of Iraq's economy under the Coalition Provisional Authority. Taking advantage of Iraqi citizen's shock and awe from the trauma of war, the looting of Iraq was executed under color of establishing a democracy. This is key: the same can happen after a civil war in Bolivia whereby-with US help-Bolivia is Balkanized. Bush's base, the transnationals, didn’t have to negotiate with anyone. They had "no bid" deals with the US so they did not have to even negotiate with the US. "No Bid" deals are key since they were the tools-whereby wealth is unfairly transferred-used after Katrina. It is the model of what would have been used in Beni, if Bush could have brought down Evo long ago. The formula is: Crisis="No Bid Contracts". A variant of that formula was implemented when Iraq's natural resources were captured as spoils of Bush's pre-emptive war under the color of providing security for Americans from WMD and liberating Iraqis from Saddam.

Norman's subtext implies that WMD was the issue. If so, then since former CIA head Bush (father) and the UN knew of the 550 tons of yellowcake, why didn't Bush secure it after bombing Iraq into the stoneage, massacring Iraqi troops as they fled and while occupying Iraq while Saddam went into hiding?

Norman: "Well, my guess is because Saddam still ran the country and still dictated where the inspectors could go and what they could do."
Norman misunderstands the issue's likely timeline in that there is no way the 550 TONS of yellowcake were a complete surprize that went undiscovered until inspectors came AFTER Sadam was in control again. 550 TONS of yellowcake are not some feat of magic that just appears. Its existence was known to the US when Saddam and the Iraqi troops were on the run. He was in no position to have "still dictated where" the invading US and coalition troops and/or "inspectors could go and what they could do" since it was likely qualified inspectors accompanied occupying coalition troops.

Norman: "He had that yellowcake for a reason and it was not peaceful"
Norman implies the Times is wrong when they wrote: 'Yellowcake alone is not considered potent enough for a "dirty bomb"'. If Norman is right and the LA Times is wrong then Canada is suspect for buying the yellowcake. The yellowcake is what it is: not fit for even dirty bombs but usable for nuclear powered alternative energy as is planned in Canada. It is not vindication for Bush having lied and people having died.

Bush's Iraq War is about NOT owning oil as long as you control it, control oil's distribution and colonize others to serve as your markets. Hopefully, Bolivians of good faith understand that thought and its ramifications lest Bolivia' media luna becomes the next Iraq.

7:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

El Grindio,
I´m still waiting to know what EXACTLY you do at US District Court in L.A. (other than maybe working in the cafeteria). I have some AUSA friends that may be interested in what you say.

7:41 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

"working in the cafeteria", yeah, that's me.

Now how about instead of lurking, you define yourself. Where do you work now. Better yet, to which chapter of the Aryan Brotherhood did you gift your virginity to in exchange for protection. You know, not long after you saw me busing tables at the cafeteria during your trial's break.

8:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

El Grindio,
I´m still waiting to know what EXACTLY you do at US District Court in L.A. (other than maybe working in the cafeteria). I have some AUSA friends that may be interested in what you say.

Quote from Braveheart "Answer the fuckin question"

9:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Screw Sadamm and Screw Manfred, both are the same type.

Long live Evo who will liberate Bolivia once and for all.

Croats are Beni's crooks
Katrina is your mother

9:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

El Grindio said...
Anon 5:30PM,

PSS I choose as my weapons: the rule of law; including and not limited to Section 1983 of the US Code; The Alien Torts Claim Act.
My battlefied choice: Los Aneles US Federal District Court in the Central District of California as a choice of forum

6:09 PM
Who are You El Grindio?! cuidado

Quote from Braveheart "Answer the fuckin question"

10:02 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

E-G: "550 TONS of yellowcake are not some feat of magic that just appears. Its existence was known to the US when Saddam and the Iraqi troops were on the run. He was in no position to have "still dictated where" the invading US and coalition troops and/or "inspectors could go and what they could do" since it was likely qualified inspectors accompanied occupying coalition troops."

E-G, I’m guessing that you are at most about 20 to 22 and don’t really have any personal memories of Desert Storm, so I’ll point out a couple of things. The coalition mission was to liberate Kuwait. There were only limited operations into southern Iraq to support this mission (See this map. I went in right about where the 4th arrow from the right is.)
This limited mission had widespread and unprecedented support to include non-typical US "allies" such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Syria (See Coalition ). These countries emphasized that the mission was only to expel Iraq from Kuwait. Anything beyond that charter, and our allies would quickly turn into our enemies. This wasn’t an empty threat; these allies were operating top line Soviet equipment adjacent to our units. (Why do you think we did not finish the Republican Guard when we had the opportunity – the mission mandate had been met when they left Kuwait.) You misunderstand the situation completely. We most certainly could not have gone wherever we wanted unless we were willing to expose our flanks to a three-front war. After the war, if you check history, you’ll find that Hussein absolutely did dictate where the inspectors went and when. We responded with airstrikes on occasion, but never succeeded in getting unrestricted access to the sites.

Norman implies the Times is wrong when they wrote: 'Yellowcake alone is not considered potent enough for a "dirty bomb"'. If Norman is right and the LA Times is wrong then Canada is suspect for buying the yellowcake. The yellowcake is what it is: not fit for even dirty bombs but usable for nuclear powered alternative energy as is planned in Canada.
I get the feeling that you were a bit rushed in reading the article and may have missed where the LA Times pointed out that Yellowcake also can be enriched for use in reactors and, at higher levels, weapons..
Sorry about not staying on topic (the elections) but unfortunately I find myself agreeing almost completely with your assessment of the situation. Not looking good for the prefects.

10:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

El Grindio,
I´m interested also, you have such strong opinions and you have made many claims about who you are and your many accomplishments what do you have to corroborate any of your claims? Or are we to accept them all at face value?

10:34 PM  
Blogger Norman said...

One other point; Tuwaitha is only 18 miles south of Baghdad. No chance whatsoever that we would have gotten ground troops close during Desert Storm. And inspectors were there to inspect; not clean up. It was up to Hussein (under supervision) to destroy stockpiles.

10:43 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Anon 10:34PM,
Your comment reads as if you think it's all about me. It's not. It's about building a participatory democracy in Bolivia, from the bottom up. And you developing an informed opinion.

If I make a case, weigh my arguments by their facts, merits, evidence, verifiability and/or my pattern of reasoning.

2:42 AM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

I defer to Norman's "personal memories of Desert Storm" for whatever that is worth. But none of his memories change a thing about the 550 TONS and that "yellow cake alone is not considered potent enough for a dirty bomb". That it "also can be enriched for use in reactors and, AT HIGHER LEVELS, weapons" does not make a WMD today if it is not at higher levels or enriched. Neither of which it was or is. Thus no WMD; no vindication for Bush.

On the elections topics, if you wonder why the prefects will lose while Evo will win, view these videos. They show why the local media, Goldberg and the Dark Side covertly operating at the US Mission are evil for aiding and abetting their surrogates, the evildoer ogliarchs like Branko and their shock troops. These videos also show: A) how the Santa Cruz media lies about the democratic bottom-up social movement; and B) collectively why humble Bolivian patriots makes me proud to be a Bolivian:

1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF-8X9YmCaI&NR=1

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEiLasNPYtk&feature=related

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0YFrOhJJM&NR=1

4)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0YFrOhJJM&feature=related

3:26 AM  
Blogger bowsie said...

Is there actually a debate about whether Sadaam had weapons of mass destruction? I thought even Donald Rumsfeld had admitted that Sadaam had no such weapons programs. The United States investigations teams have confirmed there was no weapons program. The UN weapons watchdogs have confirmed there were no weapons of mass destruction.

Then we have the pre-war claims which turned out to be unmitigated lies. The "15 minute" claim in the British dossier, the mobile factories that Powell showed to the UN, the yellow cake sale from Niger, all told to the UN while the British and American governments knew they were lies. We have the timelines, we know they lied, we know there is no evidence of a weapons program.

Then the yellow cake mentioned above... that was from Iraq's NUCLEAR ENERGY (note not Nuclear weapons) program, which never went anywhere near a weapons program. That yellow cake was from pre-Gulf War I days and was never used afterwards.

The fact that this is even being debated is barmy. The fact that I've actually responded to this madness is... disappointing.

At least "own little world" status has been confirmed for one or two people...

6:22 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

Mark the date down E-G. We have come to a consensus. I agree 100 percent with your first paragraph.

Bowsie, there is no debate; he absolutely had WMDs in 1991 and before. The question is when and how he dispossessed himself of said weapons and did he have any at the beginning of the second Gulf War. One faction thought that this yellowcake constituted WMDs at the beginning of the 2nd conflict thus vindication and it spun off from there. I think we’ve come to an agreement that the yellowcake did not. Now you have thrown in that it was always for a peaceful nuclear energy program. That is hardly an established fact nor likely given Hussein’s bellicose nature and truly imperial aspirations, not to mention that he was sitting on top of all that oil. But it’s a theory I suppose.

6:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow! I didn't know there were so many experts in the matter of nuclear arms production. Jim should be very honored/worried to have so many of them in his humble little blog.

Interesting how so many of those who support Cuchi-Cuchi worshiper and his band of monolito lovers also supported a mass murderer like Saddam Hussein.

Is it me, or is there some sort of correlation there?

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina.

7:51 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

This post has been removed by the author.

9:57 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

The information actually isn't too difficult to obtain. Some more interesting reading on the topic:

Uranium Hexafluoride production

Gas centrifuges used to enrich Uranium

Iraqi attempts to procure Gas Centrifuge

What do I call you anyway? anon's a bit impersonal and some of the other monikers used here have been less than flattering. Perhaps just ;-). Easy to spell; tough to pronounce.

10:00 AM  
Blogger Norman said...

At the risk of wearing out my quota of posts for this thread... While returning from lunch, I was listening to the local (Santa Cruz) news radio. One of the commenters (I didn't catch who) was stating that approving the law convoking the referendum was a mistake. Since they can't modify the law in congress, all that's left is to mobilize the social sectors. Gentlemen, start your engines.

1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon (aka Beni) says: "Interesting how so many of those who support Cuchi-Cuchi worshiper and his band of monolito lovers also supported a mass murderer like Saddam Hussein.

Is it me, or is there some sort of correlation there?"

Nobody on this board has given given one word of support to Sadaam Hussein. Some people who gave verbal, tactical and physical support to Sadaam Hussein in the past are: CIA, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Snr.

Those of us you argue against were completely against Sadaam. We were also against the bombing to death of innocent Iraqi civilians. We were also against destabilizing a country and leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

The difference between you and us is we were always against Sadaam, always against dictatorships of any kind (that includes Castro). We are always against injustice and not just the kind that is politically difficult for the United States.

You and your bankrupt ideology have no place moralizing over Sadaam. As if we were in the early eighties you would be telling us what a secular modernizer he was. You complete hypocrite.

6:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Those of us you argue against were completely against Sadaam. We were also against the bombing to death of innocent Iraqi civilians. We were also against destabilizing a country and leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people."

Yeah, and I'm sure guys like you were marching on the streets during the 80s and 90s protesting the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians by Hussein's regime.

No, wait! You guys only remembered about their human rights and suffering only after the US decided to get rid of Hussein.

Spare us your fake display of compassion or concern for others. They're worth less than used toilet paper.

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

PS You can call me ;-), Norman

8:50 AM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Bush's "Vindicator-in-Chief" ("VIC") functions as mole whose purpose is to spread the message that "Bush is vindicated", attack Bolivia's fledgling democracy by personal, and wildly attack its elected president, Evo. VIC does not understand Spanish and objects when we post documents that are in Spanish. He claims everything should be "in the language of Shakespeare" thus obligating us to provide him with translations. If he does not understand Spanish, never provides insight about Bolivia and the building of its democracy, why is he here.

I think VIC comments on this blog because he is probably paid to A) vindicate Bush by spreading disinformation that is for Bush and against Evo and B) chill US patriot's democratic exercise of their right to seek redress for their grievances against their government as to their misconduct in Bolivia or elsewhere as in the case of Iraq where Bush lied and many, many people died. American and Iraqi.

In VIC's comments above, he seeks to vindicate Bush by creating a false dilemma for those of us whose love of the USA is such that we cannot remain silent when our leaders engage in evil, be they Republican, Democrat or _______ (fill in). VIC impliedly claims that we were supposed be "marching on the streets during the 80s and 90s protesting" against Saddam despite that Saddam was not anyone who had been voted into power to represent us. For a democracy to work one must hold their representatives to account. There is no principle requiring one to intervene in the affairs of other nations about whose internal affairs we might not be informed. We leave it to our elected representatives to deal diplomatically AND LAWFULLY with the leaders of other governments. When our leaders do not represent us appropriately then we can exercise our 1st Amendment rights accordingly, as to OUR leaders. It's the American way as taught to us in our civics class during our secondary education.

1:08 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

Anon 12:38PM wrote about his lack of understanding why I opined that Evo has been fiscally much more responsible than the "civicos". This despite that I supported my claim with factually based research. Further, said commentator-claiming to be a member of Bolivia's middle class-made an opinionated, argumentative case against Evo. I forwarded said comment to llajta, a list of multi-cultural, multi-lingual Bolivians as an example of a point of view from a member of Bolivia's middle class. Upon his return from La Paz, the ever-articulate-highly informed, Mr. Jose Lanza (aka the "Follow the Money" kid for his ability to scratch underneath the surface of issues) responded to said comentator-line by line in the language written-as follows:

Apreciado Grindio,

“… I can't imagine someone would argue for Morales' regime as being a benefit to the country’s economy…”
Apparently this so called “medio clasista” does not accept your argument that our country’s economic condition is much better under Morales than before and this can only be attributed to the constant “brainwashing” Bolivians are subjected to by oligarchy’s media campaign against Morales from the very beginning of his government. And there is nothing that is going to change their mind (or lack of).

“… es muy fácil para gente que vive muy cómoda en el extranjero decir que la economía esta mejor debajo de Morales…”.
Este dislocado social no se da cuenta que precisamente es desde fuera de donde uno tiene una mejor perspectiva de lo que acontece en nuestro país ya que estamos libres de las influencias mediáticas de ambos bandos, por cierto estas no tan solo “pretenden” darnos información pero también nos dan una buena porción de… desinformació n.

“… para nosotros que no somos ni campesinos ni oligarcas nuestra realidad económica a empeorado… “.
Una aseveración típica de un racista donde califica de campesino a la población indígena de nuestro país, en otras palabras se nota el desdeño por lo indígena donde cree que s u único lugar es el campo, simultáneamente califica al otro extremo de oligarcas cuando simplemente se puede tratar de bolivianos que llegaron a una excelente posición económica gracias a su trabajo y no como a los nuevos oligarcas que tan solo llegaron a esa posición gracias a la corrupción de los gobiernos neoliberales (incluyendo a los movimientistas del 52).

“… es un mal entendido de muchos que fue el campesino que llevo a Evo a la presidencia…”.
No existe ningún mal entendido y la prueba esta en los números, y de yapa los números también hablaron en las ultimas elecciones de la Malinche donde el MAS gano en todas las provincias excepto en el Hotel Pacheco (donde no me extrañaría que el Solemne Levudito voto por la Malinche). Que una buena porción de la clase media voto por Morales no quepa duda alguna, pero esto fue no porque tenían fe en el, sino que no les quedaba otra, los neoliberales que estaban en el árbol se lo llevaban todo y no dejaban ni migajas para los boludos medio clasistas. El MAS en las elecciones del 2005 no tenían ninguna ideología era simplemente un instrumento político del que Morales aprovecho y dada la coyuntura política del momento fue elegido presidente.

“… la realidad es que la clase media es la que llevo Evo al palacio quemado…”.
Eso es lo que este boludito quisiera creer, la realidad es que la med ia clase está empezando ha hacerse pis en sus polleras porque pensaron que con la elección del k’ewa como vice-presidente mantendría a Morales en “check”, pero no se dieron cuenta que este era mas radical que Morales y que el indigenismo no solamente llego al gobierno sino que ahora están adquiriendo poder y no fácilmente van ha soltar la mamadera ( eso si con mínima corrupción o al menos no con el grado que existía antes).

“… es la misma clase que mas a sufrido debajo de Evo y que a perdido toda ilusión de un futuro mejor…”.
La clase media esta sufriendo algo pero nada como para quejarse y conste que no es culpa de Morales, sino de la presente crisis alimenticia y crediticia mundial. Esto es lo que estos boluditos no entienden, creyeron que iban a comer torta todo el tiempo, pues tenemos noticias para estos parásitos… tiene que acostumbrarse a las marraquetas y que pronto van a tener que acostumbrarse a las allullas. Una vez que la política económica de Morales este completamente implementada el futuro de todos, si, todos los bolivianos será no solamente mejor sino vivirán… bien!!

“… Evo no esta capacitado para gobernar a nuestro país, es un fracaso completo, sigue con esa retrasada mentalidad de dirigente cocalero…”.
Eso es lo que estos querrían creer, pero los logros por nuestro país demuestran todo lo contra rio. No que no hubo desaciertos pero tomando todo en cuenta su gobierno globalmente lo positivo definitivamente prevalece.

“… los lideres de la media luna son la misma basura de siempre, y solo quieren proteger sus intereses...”.
Y bueno, parece que ha este boludito sus neuronas le empezó a funcionar un poco; pero, tan solo un poco ya que no da expande su criterio al respecto. En pocas palabras no hay prestar mucha importancia a lo que este aprendiz de Zaratista vocifera no en vano se mantiene anonimo.

“… en fin nuestro país no tiene un buen futuro… […]… solo queda que nuestros hijos escapen al exterior para tener una vida con oportunidades. No merecen luchar y gastar sus vidas en este país destinado al fracaso… […]…lo que falta a Bolivia es un líder verdadero…”.
Definidamente este no solo es un apátrida sino también un… derrotista!! ; este y sus hijos no importa donde vayan nunca dejaran de ser unos… “losers”!!!

Saludos,
José FTM

2:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Make up your mind: VIC or mole? You're just gonna confuse readers.

"...by personal, and wildly attack its elected president, Evo."

Nothing personal. I just think it's kinky he's into monolitos and he has a funny haircut.

"He claims everything should be "in the language of Shakespeare" thus obligating us to provide him with translations."

Blame Jim. His blog is in English, so common courtesy expects it to remain in English.

"In VIC's comments above, he seeks to vindicate Bush by creating a false dilemma for those of us whose love of the USA is such that we cannot remain silent when our leaders engage in evil."

I never said anything about protesting against one's leaders. I said guys like Mr.-I-worry-so-much-for-Iraqi-civilians above only remember to display outrage and concern for human suffering when the U.S. is involved.

"There is no principle requiring one to intervene in the affairs of other nations about whose internal affairs we might not be informed. We leave it to our elected representatives to deal diplomatically AND LAWFULLY with the leaders of other governments."

You're absolutely right. If we had only engaged diplomatically with Hitler. Or the Taliban. Now that I think about it, the people in Darfur and Zimbabwe are doing wonderfully after so much "diplomacy."

;-)

The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina

3:10 PM  
Anonymous El Grindio said...

VIC is your name; mole is what you are; clown is what you do.

Jim's blog is in English about Bolivia. Thus, many primary resources are in Spanish. Therefore, for accuracy, it is appropriate to provide readers with them in the language they were written in without investing time translating for lazy ignoramuses like VIC who refuse to use a free internet translator.

3:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The oligarcs will be gone soon, either back to motherland or to jail. Investigate their ill conceived fortunes NOW.

Croats and Neonazis are Beni's crooks
Katrina is your mother ...

5:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Branko's Croats & UCJ Morales' Hitler's Nazis
Katrina is ;-)'s streetwalker "work-name"